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Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:33 pm

Mudamuda wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Boy, some Dies Irae fans I have the misfortune of knowing just can't hide how pissy they get when defending their verse. I posted scans that show there's higher dimensions, a blade that severs all of them (way above 4 or 5D, it cuts all of them be they higher or lower, and then the Magic Gods description of them controlling and manipulating every dimension and the newest one saying they overcome them. All is exactly what it means, all of them regardless of the number. No need to overthink it any harder and work yourself up, my friend. Dividing their powers infinitely does have some backbone to it when each divided bit of their powers is just low enough for the universe to not get destroyed by their presence. Then you whining and complaining about the series story or Touma always winning all his fights (false, big time) which I don't see has any purpose in a debate. Especially since Dies Irae isn't too promising in story itself. Jew Aru, was that supposed to be your big witty remark? I'll be embarrassed if that's all you got. I wouldn't be pointing fingers about saying the Index series is anything like Suggs writing. You got folks thinking Dies Irae is basically Suggsverse just with a Nazi-fetish weirdness added into the mix. And fans that so viciously worship what's essentially untranslated nonsense to the extent that you do isn't doing it any favors Wink

To be specific you didn't post a scan, you posted a respect thread and expected people to find the cite that's supposed to prove your point. You might as well starts blaring binary in Lingua-technis at me.

"All dimensions" doesn't state nor imply infinity at all as there's not a single statement directly stating that they're "infinite". We have infinite worlds -> Multiverse(s) but not infinite dimensions.

All it does prove is there is a number of arbitrary dimensions above the 4th dimensions inside Index, how much more above it? We don't know and to assume infinity on a basis of a very vague and very unquantifiable statement is pretty presumptuous especially without a direct statement is a standard no limits fallacy. It could even fit as Reductio ad absurdum.


There is a vast gap between speculations within a certain logical framework, and scenes that are unquantifiable. I means look at this statement: “That means you don’t need control over every phase, every dimension, and every element to manipulate everything around you. A magician with control over carbon and nothing else can pull that one off.”
How did you quantify this controlling infinite dimensions, all the text doing is making an analogy that in order to everything around, you don’t need to control everything just carbon. You can’t even dissect this statement and to get an implicit feat.
Let’s discent this even further
This is basically what you’re claiming happening

Person A: “…That means you don’t need control over every phase, every dimension, and every element to manipulate everything around you. A magician with control over carbon and nothing else can pull that one off...”

Claim: “Persona A must have been able to do all those things! He can control the world around him!”

But the statement has nothing to do with persona A being able to do all those things, the statement is about controlling carbon.

The respect thread is claiming  “Magic Gods also control and manipulate all higher and lower spacial dimensions. Other examples of beings who affect these higher spatial dimensions that surpass our 3 Dimensional world to a more limited extent include Kuroko and Carissa. Magic Gods control and transcend all spatial dimensions via residing outside all possible existance.”

And somehow the supporting materials is at odds with each other

Text before and after the cited materia:
“Please wait!! He…he really did bend the entire world before my eyes! It was like…like this… It’s hard to explain, but the walls, floor, and ceiling all turned into weapons, tunnels appeared in the people in the way, and they all attacked me at once!”
“Have you forgotten?” Othinus sounded almost utterly exasperated. “This is the Dianoid. The entire building is made of carbon materials. That means you don’t need control over every phase, every dimension, and every element to manipulate everything around you. A magician with control over carbon and nothing else can pull that one off.”
“…”
“There are two primary legends about St. Germain. The first is how he conquered aging whether by immortality or time travel. His predictions of the future and knowledge of great secrets are derived from the time travel. The second is his ability to control jewels and restore scratched diamonds. Doesn’t that seem to fit with the clichéd situation we have now?”
Diamonds were carbon.
The building was made of carbon.
The human body was organic matter and thus also made of carbon.
What did that mean?
“But…he knew.”
“Knew what?”
-------------------------------------
Another one. Reposting.
“The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about. (Unrealistic ideals don’t matter. What exactly are you supposed to do against a monster like that!?) It was absolute overkill. It went far beyond an overflow error.”

A multiverse with infinite universes is 5-D hyper (insert shape) consisting an infinite number 4-D cross-section, each cross-section is a 4D (3-spacial + 1 time) universe. Which fits the stand model of universe because a magic god is like a cactus beside a single a single universe according to the statement.

If the magic god is higher that 5-D space he wouldn't even perceive a single universe at all, A 6-D would perceive an in infinite sets of 5-D cross-section side by side, each 5-D cross-section can be infinitely divided into 4-D cross-section.

If a Magic god is an entity of the 7th dimension were to draw a graph of a function that's equivalent to (y=x^2) in the 7th dimension, you’d get a line of that function that represents 5-D cross-sections; each a multiverse containing with 4-D universe (3-spacial dimensions + 1 time).

The statement also gives us some context on how the magic gods operate outside the universe such as:
-Bigger than the universe
-Can destroy a universe or multiple universe by “toppling over”. Which is possible within a 5th-dimensional framework. As there’s an array of universes ‘slices/cross-sections’ that composes the 5-D medium that it’s part of.
-Can go to lower dimensions.

It's not over thinking, it's called analyzing the source material. All you’re doing is invoking The Analysis Paralysis fallacy, so why would I stop analyzing the text give counter-premise to your assertion that there’s no such thing as infinite dimensions?

We have the data and we have descriptions of kind of properties spacial dimensions in one of the cites in respect thread, then there's no reason to stop the analyzing. Unless Index has a different definition compared how dimensions work or have different properties, that would be problem, the good thing is that the text used properties of special dimensions than we can quantify.

I know this is a VS but the attitudes in VS forums are so aggressive as to make it less a debating room and more of a gladiatorial shouting matches of NO YOU!, where people will stick to their guns no matter what, refusing to think and call it overthinking, make an attempt of even a small smidgen of analysis and brick wall tactics and brute force ignorance are the main driving forces.

At the end of the day nobody is really proving anything anymore, and the standard of VS debate is slipping to no end.

What I'm trying to do here is show that everyone is capable of a reasonable, evidence-based and polite debate where actual conclusions are reached (even if the actual conclusion ends up being "we don't know.").

This is supposed to be a new forums so let’s try changing the perception that a VS debate has to be a tooth and nail fight to the death.


Breezed through everything since your argument comes down to "it isn't this way because I don't want it to be." There's nothing vague with the words "all" and "every" but in case you need the definition.

All: used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.
   "all the people I met"

Every: (preceding a singular noun) used to refer to all the individual members of a set without exception.

And then once more, its stated that Magic Gods have the power to overcome dimensions in a verse where dimensions are referring to all dimensions below and above 3D. Toss in both, and there's nothing vague at all about the message.

I lol'd at the bolded part. Good luck with working on that. First impressions are everything.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:15 am

Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:Fine. Reader's Digest Version of a Magic God and posted in Facts and Feats: They affects concepts, infinitely Multiversal in terms of scope, transcend causality and freely control it, can create, destroy or manipulate all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower than 3 dimensional space and that included, and can't be challenged unless the character is proven to be at their level. I recall Hajun beating the Hadou Gods with a wave of his hand and universe going boom each time he speaks. Figured he'd stalemate the current Magic Gods. They get all the above but with the addition that they have to divide their infinite powers infinitely to be at just a level where the universe can contain them. Anything less and any universe is destroyed by their presence. That's why they reside in an infinitely infinite world (goes on forever and the slightest gaps go on for infinity) to where concepts like time and distance don't exist and the place itself is outside all existence as non-existance. Should be noted too that Crowley whose implied to be stronger than Othinus but weaker than the other Magic Gods managed to destroy that place despite its description during his rampage before he got his ass handed to him by High Priest. All that and more on my Respect thread

Honestly, i will go with what you saw for now(i will reread to aru magic god arcs carefully) and like i said before to aru is not writed in omniscient narrator so words are exageration, but that can stay for another time.



But even with those feats, strongest being that Magic Gods could possibly beat is Satanael  as long as they fight without throne supporting him because he is  only Universal+, and that because his weakness is him commiting any sort of Sin and when he do he is erased.


I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.


In the series all Hadou gods can destroy others without using attacks, just by existing, Hajun erased all hadou gods with exception of Tenma/Ren but it was said he could have destroyed Tenma whenever he wanted, but Tenma would never be a treat to Hajun.

The likes of Mercurius,Reinhard are all metaversal+, and even conceptual abilities isn't able to do nothing against Hadou Gods, their desires surpass all concepts and they exist on their own they are said to be walking "universes" the power of their desires surpasses everything, and they are able to inflict abilities on others as much as they want as long their desire is stronger than the other example: Ren used time manipulation to stop time against characters that are acasual, but because his power as Hadou God he is able to ignore all their resistance and existing outside of time/acasuality and make the effects of time stop work on them anyway.

Just to point out that Satanel isn't universal. He is very well multiversal. His World consisted of just one universe, but that's not indicative of his power, as his Law just wasn't the kind to create a multiverse (Snake's however, does). By virtue of being a Hadou God, Satanel's Taikyouku Value should be above Gudou Gods, who are very well multiversal (his Value is 80, by the way). Plus, Soujirou and Shiori (two Gudou Gods with Values around 60) were trashed by a badly Throne emulated copy of Satanel's Taikyouku.

mudamuda wrote:Just so you know Yakou's taikyoku is 10 which is really really insignificant bug compared to Hadou gods.

Is it? I thought it was 65.

ChaosKnight65 wrote: You got folks thinking Dies Irae is basically Suggsverse just with a Nazi-fetish weirdness added into the mix. And fans that so viciously worship what's essentially untranslated nonsense to the extent that you do isn't doing your beloved series any favors Wink

mudamuda wrote:
And shit how many times can you put infinite in a respect thread it feels like reading suggs somehow became the writer of Jew Aru.


This goes for both of you. Do you think bashing either series is going to add more credence to your arguments? As the OP, I ask you to stop this. And from what I'm seeing, it's not criticism with any kind of weight either. Which makes both of you look rather inmature.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Mudamuda on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:47 am

trexalfa wrote:

Is it? I thought it was 65.

This is Yakou early when fighting the Tenma. He had a taikyoku of 2 at the beginning of the series and which was upgraded to 10 later in the story. 65 is final fight Yakou and post hajun Yakou.

Yakou was tearing 24 dimensionals space-faults to defend himself against Tenma Machina's attack at 10. He did die but Hajun was being hajun Mad

I think there's a misconception about Taikyoku, doesn't make you physically stronger that's a different index. That's why physical combat suddenly becomes important if your taikyoku is to close to each other. Otherwise if the difference is high enough all other stats doesn't matter because you wouldn't be cause a breach in the opposing law.

An example of this would the Reinhard vs Mercurius both of them have the same taikyoku but Reinhard is physically inferior to Mercurius because of the amount of souls that Mercuries holds. Having more souls at Atzilith is similar to how it works earlier in DI, More souls = better physicals stats, improved senses, tougher. and etc.

Taikyoku is an independent stat.

Stats are divided into 6 sections. 歪曲 is pre-taikyoku stats.

歪曲/太極 走力 咒力 気力 体力 筋力
http://i.imgur.com/HsEXCsK.jpg?1

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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Chaos on Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:58 pm

trexalfa wrote:
Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:Fine. Reader's Digest Version of a Magic God and posted in Facts and Feats: They affects concepts, infinitely Multiversal in terms of scope, transcend causality and freely control it, can create, destroy or manipulate all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower than 3 dimensional space and that included, and can't be challenged unless the character is proven to be at their level. I recall Hajun beating the Hadou Gods with a wave of his hand and universe going boom each time he speaks. Figured he'd stalemate the current Magic Gods. They get all the above but with the addition that they have to divide their infinite powers infinitely to be at just a level where the universe can contain them. Anything less and any universe is destroyed by their presence. That's why they reside in an infinitely infinite world (goes on forever and the slightest gaps go on for infinity) to where concepts like time and distance don't exist and the place itself is outside all existence as non-existance. Should be noted too that Crowley whose implied to be stronger than Othinus but weaker than the other Magic Gods managed to destroy that place despite its description during his rampage before he got his ass handed to him by High Priest. All that and more on my Respect thread

Honestly, i will go with what you saw for now(i will reread to aru magic god arcs carefully) and like i said before to aru is not writed in omniscient narrator so words are exageration, but that can stay for another time.



But even with those feats, strongest being that Magic Gods could possibly beat is Satanael  as long as they fight without throne supporting him because he is  only Universal+, and that because his weakness is him commiting any sort of Sin and when he do he is erased.


I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.


In the series all Hadou gods can destroy others without using attacks, just by existing, Hajun erased all hadou gods with exception of Tenma/Ren but it was said he could have destroyed Tenma whenever he wanted, but Tenma would never be a treat to Hajun.

The likes of Mercurius,Reinhard are all metaversal+, and even conceptual abilities isn't able to do nothing against Hadou Gods, their desires surpass all concepts and they exist on their own they are said to be walking "universes" the power of their desires surpasses everything, and they are able to inflict abilities on others as much as they want as long their desire is stronger than the other example: Ren used time manipulation to stop time against characters that are acasual, but because his power as Hadou God he is able to ignore all their resistance and existing outside of time/acasuality and make the effects of time stop work on them anyway.

Just to point out that Satanel isn't universal. He is very well multiversal. His World consisted of just one universe, but that's not indicative of his power, as his Law just wasn't the kind to create a multiverse (Snake's however, does). By virtue of being a Hadou God, Satanel's Taikyouku Value should be above Gudou Gods, who are very well multiversal (his Value is 80, by the way). Plus, Soujirou and Shiori (two Gudou Gods with Values around 60) were trashed by a badly Throne emulated copy of Satanel's Taikyouku.

.

Kinda, when someone is at Throne they have the size of Shinza at the size they want, at Satanael it was one universe with Snake and Hajun was a metaverse+ , the hadou gods though are affected by the one at the throne, but it can as well just means they are limited to the being that is with their desire above them and just limited to it.


You know what.


ToAru is not that bad, but it has a subjective narrator at times, and extremely excessive amount of people talking about things that can lead to misunderstanding, but theres one phrase done by one of the Majin Gods.

"I need to infinitely divide my power to infinite to not break the world"

See where it gets subjective? World cannot be used as the same word for infinite multiversal, and its a majin god saying, so his statement rule over Ollerus and all other statements so far, feats? No, thats just fancy writing in the rest like i said, the author is not omniscient, he gets subjective, he doubts and and if you think Dies Irae is suggsverse-tier because of its powerlevel, its pretty stupid , not mind offending the fans. The series are pretty well written, chunni, yes a LOT, but its well done, the characters developments are extrememly good, the actions are consistent, the system of power is not flawed the characters are interesting, the universe construction is interesting plus the novel has few bad points.

Seeing more, all the majin gods respectively says they are only able to break the "world", where is limited to the universe, when theres controversy from the characters itself of how strong they are, you don't go with high-ends, but low-ends that is Universal, Low-multiversal or multiversal+ at best going with anything from the subjective and fancy way of writing everytime on high-end is what means to be wanking a series.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:42 am

Chaos wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:Fine. Reader's Digest Version of a Magic God and posted in Facts and Feats: They affects concepts, infinitely Multiversal in terms of scope, transcend causality and freely control it, can create, destroy or manipulate all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower than 3 dimensional space and that included, and can't be challenged unless the character is proven to be at their level. I recall Hajun beating the Hadou Gods with a wave of his hand and universe going boom each time he speaks. Figured he'd stalemate the current Magic Gods. They get all the above but with the addition that they have to divide their infinite powers infinitely to be at just a level where the universe can contain them. Anything less and any universe is destroyed by their presence. That's why they reside in an infinitely infinite world (goes on forever and the slightest gaps go on for infinity) to where concepts like time and distance don't exist and the place itself is outside all existence as non-existance. Should be noted too that Crowley whose implied to be stronger than Othinus but weaker than the other Magic Gods managed to destroy that place despite its description during his rampage before he got his ass handed to him by High Priest. All that and more on my Respect thread

Honestly, i will go with what you saw for now(i will reread to aru magic god arcs carefully) and like i said before to aru is not writed in omniscient narrator so words are exageration, but that can stay for another time.



But even with those feats, strongest being that Magic Gods could possibly beat is Satanael  as long as they fight without throne supporting him because he is  only Universal+, and that because his weakness is him commiting any sort of Sin and when he do he is erased.


I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.


In the series all Hadou gods can destroy others without using attacks, just by existing, Hajun erased all hadou gods with exception of Tenma/Ren but it was said he could have destroyed Tenma whenever he wanted, but Tenma would never be a treat to Hajun.

The likes of Mercurius,Reinhard are all metaversal+, and even conceptual abilities isn't able to do nothing against Hadou Gods, their desires surpass all concepts and they exist on their own they are said to be walking "universes" the power of their desires surpasses everything, and they are able to inflict abilities on others as much as they want as long their desire is stronger than the other example: Ren used time manipulation to stop time against characters that are acasual, but because his power as Hadou God he is able to ignore all their resistance and existing outside of time/acasuality and make the effects of time stop work on them anyway.

Just to point out that Satanel isn't universal. He is very well multiversal. His World consisted of just one universe, but that's not indicative of his power, as his Law just wasn't the kind to create a multiverse (Snake's however, does). By virtue of being a Hadou God, Satanel's Taikyouku Value should be above Gudou Gods, who are very well multiversal (his Value is 80, by the way). Plus, Soujirou and Shiori (two Gudou Gods with Values around 60) were trashed by a badly Throne emulated copy of Satanel's Taikyouku.

.

Kinda, when someone is at Throne they have the size of Shinza at the size they want, at Satanael it was one universe with Snake and Hajun was a metaverse+ , the hadou gods though are affected by the one at the throne, but it can as well just means they are limited to the being that is with their desire above them and just limited to it.


You know what.


ToAru is not that bad, but it has  a subjective narrator at times, and extremely excessive amount of people talking about things that can lead to misunderstanding, but theres one phrase done by one of the Majin Gods.

"I need to infinitely divide my power to infinite to not break the world"

See where it gets subjective? World cannot be used as the same word for infinite multiversal, and its a majin god saying, so his statement rule over Ollerus and all other statements so far, feats? No, thats just fancy writing in the rest like i said, the author is not omniscient, he gets subjective, he doubts and and if you think Dies Irae is suggsverse-tier because of its powerlevel, its pretty stupid , not mind offending the fans. The series are pretty well written, chunni, yes a LOT, but its well done, the characters developments are extrememly good, the actions are consistent, the system of power is not flawed the characters are interesting, the universe construction is interesting plus the novel has few bad points.

Seeing more, all the majin gods respectively says they are only able to break the "world", where is limited to the universe, when theres controversy from the characters itself of how strong they are, you don't go with high-ends, but low-ends that is Universal, Low-multiversal or multiversal+ at best going with anything from the subjective and fancy way of writing everytime on high-end is what means to be wanking a series.
Just world?

Thor ruled a single world while Othinus created infinite worlds. That was an obvious and insurmountable wall.

But that was not the current problem.

Almighty Thor stood before Kamijou as a real threat and Othinus could no longer use her power. To move on, Kamijou would have to defeat him with the fists of a puny human.

“Just to be clear, I don’t designate the coordinates. For one thing, coordinates on paper are meaningless in an ever-expanding universe.”

The Index series has countless layers that make up everything. One layer is the universe the story takes place in, another layer is that infinite world of nothing that the other Majins reside in. Barring that one, she had control over all layers and could create or destroy as many as she wanted.

Nothing vague in what I posted. It's actually quite consistent. Two instances of the author stating the Magic Gods have no definite dimensional limitations.

Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author. Not calling anything on Dies Irae at all really, though there is a lot about it I find questionable, but I'll wait until I can hear more than vague fan theories and untranslated nonsense which is all I really get up until now before I do.

Anyway I called it already. This thread was going nowhere but south.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Chaos on Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:05 am

ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Chaos wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:Fine. Reader's Digest Version of a Magic God and posted in Facts and Feats: They affects concepts, infinitely Multiversal in terms of scope, transcend causality and freely control it, can create, destroy or manipulate all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower than 3 dimensional space and that included, and can't be challenged unless the character is proven to be at their level. I recall Hajun beating the Hadou Gods with a wave of his hand and universe going boom each time he speaks. Figured he'd stalemate the current Magic Gods. They get all the above but with the addition that they have to divide their infinite powers infinitely to be at just a level where the universe can contain them. Anything less and any universe is destroyed by their presence. That's why they reside in an infinitely infinite world (goes on forever and the slightest gaps go on for infinity) to where concepts like time and distance don't exist and the place itself is outside all existence as non-existance. Should be noted too that Crowley whose implied to be stronger than Othinus but weaker than the other Magic Gods managed to destroy that place despite its description during his rampage before he got his ass handed to him by High Priest. All that and more on my Respect thread

Honestly, i will go with what you saw for now(i will reread to aru magic god arcs carefully) and like i said before to aru is not writed in omniscient narrator so words are exageration, but that can stay for another time.



But even with those feats, strongest being that Magic Gods could possibly beat is Satanael  as long as they fight without throne supporting him because he is  only Universal+, and that because his weakness is him commiting any sort of Sin and when he do he is erased.


I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.


In the series all Hadou gods can destroy others without using attacks, just by existing, Hajun erased all hadou gods with exception of Tenma/Ren but it was said he could have destroyed Tenma whenever he wanted, but Tenma would never be a treat to Hajun.

The likes of Mercurius,Reinhard are all metaversal+, and even conceptual abilities isn't able to do nothing against Hadou Gods, their desires surpass all concepts and they exist on their own they are said to be walking "universes" the power of their desires surpasses everything, and they are able to inflict abilities on others as much as they want as long their desire is stronger than the other example: Ren used time manipulation to stop time against characters that are acasual, but because his power as Hadou God he is able to ignore all their resistance and existing outside of time/acasuality and make the effects of time stop work on them anyway.

Just to point out that Satanel isn't universal. He is very well multiversal. His World consisted of just one universe, but that's not indicative of his power, as his Law just wasn't the kind to create a multiverse (Snake's however, does). By virtue of being a Hadou God, Satanel's Taikyouku Value should be above Gudou Gods, who are very well multiversal (his Value is 80, by the way). Plus, Soujirou and Shiori (two Gudou Gods with Values around 60) were trashed by a badly Throne emulated copy of Satanel's Taikyouku.

.

Kinda, when someone is at Throne they have the size of Shinza at the size they want, at Satanael it was one universe with Snake and Hajun was a metaverse+ , the hadou gods though are affected by the one at the throne, but it can as well just means they are limited to the being that is with their desire above them and just limited to it.


You know what.


ToAru is not that bad, but it has  a subjective narrator at times, and extremely excessive amount of people talking about things that can lead to misunderstanding, but theres one phrase done by one of the Majin Gods.

"I need to infinitely divide my power to infinite to not break the world"

See where it gets subjective? World cannot be used as the same word for infinite multiversal, and its a majin god saying, so his statement rule over Ollerus and all other statements so far, feats? No, thats just fancy writing in the rest like i said, the author is not omniscient, he gets subjective, he doubts and and if you think Dies Irae is suggsverse-tier because of its powerlevel, its pretty stupid , not mind offending the fans. The series are pretty well written, chunni, yes a LOT, but its well done, the characters developments are extrememly good, the actions are consistent, the system of power is not flawed the characters are interesting, the universe construction is interesting plus the novel has few bad points.

Seeing more, all the majin gods respectively says they are only able to break the "world", where is limited to the universe, when theres controversy from the characters itself of how strong they are, you don't go with high-ends, but low-ends that is Universal, Low-multiversal or multiversal+ at best going with anything from the subjective and fancy way of writing everytime on high-end is what means to be wanking a series.
Just world?

Thor ruled a single world while Othinus created infinite worlds. That was an obvious and insurmountable wall.

But that was not the current problem.

Almighty Thor stood before Kamijou as a real threat and Othinus could no longer use her power. To move on, Kamijou would have to defeat him with the fists of a puny human.

“Just to be clear, I don’t designate the coordinates. For one thing, coordinates on paper are meaningless in an ever-expanding universe.”

The Index series has countless layers that make up everything. One layer is the universe the story takes place in, another layer is that infinite world of nothing that the other Majins reside in. Barring that one, she had control over all layers and could create or destroy as many as she wanted.

Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author. Not calling anything on Dies Irae at all really, though there is a lot about it I find questionable, but I'll wait until I can hear more than vague fan theories and untranslated nonsense which is all I really get up until now before I do.

This thread was going nowhere but south anyway.


No, thats not how it works, its not because theres a translation in english that means it is correct you know that too right?

ToAru "world" does not embody other layers, it just doesn't the world doesn't.

Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author

I laughed, really, thats not how it works i ask you to read a bit about what being a narrator omniscient means, yes narrator can can have limited knowledge of events, omniscient and ToAru have a limited knowledge narrator, you can google if you want.

Thor is not even universal nor is carissa, is way of speaking they have nothing to backup that.

Also even if it was jedah Dohma or god emperor of mankind could easly solo this majin gods being universal or not, they have not resistance to mindfuck on that level, nor to soulfuck, and they cant deal with conceptual, mind you being in a dimension where time and space are meaningless can be done with just a high-level reality warping.


The Index series has countless layers that make up everything. One layer is the universe the story takes place in, another layer is that infinite world of nothing that the other Majins reside in. Barring that one, she had control over all layers and could create or destroy as many as she wanted.

Nope, its implied all the things, let me remind you another phrase

"The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about."

It explicit says a single universe, they are just above, but not really meaning they can do nothing in the scale you mentioned.

And no, you can't say that those layers are specific universes, or timelines, or whatever.

The majins gods stronger than Othinus themselves said in a singular that she "destroyed the world" , and world cannot make for infinite universes, also its like the author uses universe once and world in another time. Thats a flaw in the writing and it can't be take seriously in high-ends, its a bad writing and lead to misunderstanding, theres not a single person that read the original novel( in japanese) that believes in othinus or majin gods being multiversal, not one, not two, but entire group of VS forums , and well when i get to read something as subjective as ToAru, "World" and "universe" and those way that is translated can be considered obsolete its not much better than suggs writing, so i rather go with a low-end that makes they universal+ at best than trying to point out,subjective writing that can lead to a misunderstanding high-end.


-----------------Edit------------------------------------------------

You also can't claim that destroying all layers of existence in a 3-D scope below or above means that its destroying other universes, it can just mean you destroyed the universe as a whole not letting a single thing from its existence, and yeah theoricaly a universe have different layers but is just a single universe, and she can recreate this universe as much as she wants but she cannot affect infinite worlds in "worlds" meaning other universes, thats a misunderstanding of the writing in ToAru, its just bad to comprehend.

Its different you packing mercurius attack that literally says that he destroyed the whole shinza metaverse all concepts reduced it to nothingness.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:14 am

Mudamuda wrote:
trexalfa wrote:

Is it? I thought it was 65.

This is Yakou early when fighting the Tenma. He had a taikyoku of 2 at the beginning of the series and which was upgraded to 10 later in the story. 65 is final fight Yakou and post hajun Yakou.

Yakou was tearing 24 dimensionals space-faults to defend himself against Tenma Machina's attack at 10. He did die but Hajun was being hajun Mad

I think there's a misconception about Taikyoku, doesn't make you physically stronger that's a different index. That's why physical combat suddenly becomes important if your taikyoku is to close to each other. Otherwise if the difference is high enough all other stats doesn't matter because you wouldn't be cause a breach in the opposing law.

An example of this would the Reinhard vs Mercurius both of them have the same taikyoku but Reinhard is physically inferior to Mercurius because of the amount of souls that Mercuries holds. Having more souls at Atzilith is similar to how it works earlier in DI, More souls = better physicals stats, improved senses, tougher. and etc.

Taikyoku is an independent stat.

Stats are divided into 6 sections. 歪曲 is pre-taikyoku stats.

歪曲/太極  走力 咒力 気力  体力 筋力
http://i.imgur.com/HsEXCsK.jpg?1


Yeah, you are right. Taikyouku Value doesn't indicate how physically powerful a God is, but it does indicate how strong his Law is. And that's their most powerful weapon. I use it to compare Gods. By default, Gods with a higher value are more powerful, rather than physically stronger. By the way, any chance of getting my hands on a scanned copy of KKK's VFB?

Chaos wrote:Kinda, when someone is at Throne they have the size of Shinza at the size they want, at Satanael it was one universe with Snake and Hajun was a metaverse+ , the hadou gods though are affected by the one at the throne, but it can as well just means they are limited to the being that is with their desire above them and just limited to it.


It's not a thing relating to will, as much as to the nature of the Dai Ten's Law. Suigin already was a multiverse, his Law simply boosted the Throne to encompass multiversal territory. Satanel's Law wasn't, so his Tendou Hisouten encompassed a universe alone. And he is still more powerful than every single non-boosted Gudou God we've seen.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author. Not calling anything on Dies Irae at all really, though there is a lot about it I find questionable, but I'll wait until I can hear more than vague fan theories and untranslated nonsense which is all I really get up until now before I do.

Anyway I called it already. This thread was going nowhere but south.

Anything constructive to add, more than unreasonably doubting things about a series you haven't even read? Because, you know, it's not like the concept of Japanese has been lost to us (Dies reference, god I seriously have to stop doing this). It's not nonsense, it can be learnt and read. For ToAru, you seem to be relying on fan translations? Do you now it has the same chances of being wrong than we have?
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:27 am

trexalfa wrote:
Mudamuda wrote:
trexalfa wrote:

Is it? I thought it was 65.

This is Yakou early when fighting the Tenma. He had a taikyoku of 2 at the beginning of the series and which was upgraded to 10 later in the story. 65 is final fight Yakou and post hajun Yakou.

Yakou was tearing 24 dimensionals space-faults to defend himself against Tenma Machina's attack at 10. He did die but Hajun was being hajun Mad

I think there's a misconception about Taikyoku, doesn't make you physically stronger that's a different index. That's why physical combat suddenly becomes important if your taikyoku is to close to each other. Otherwise if the difference is high enough all other stats doesn't matter because you wouldn't be cause a breach in the opposing law.

An example of this would the Reinhard vs Mercurius both of them have the same taikyoku but Reinhard is physically inferior to Mercurius because of the amount of souls that Mercuries holds. Having more souls at Atzilith is similar to how it works earlier in DI, More souls = better physicals stats, improved senses, tougher. and etc.

Taikyoku is an independent stat.

Stats are divided into 6 sections. 歪曲 is pre-taikyoku stats.

歪曲/太極  走力 咒力 気力  体力 筋力
http://i.imgur.com/HsEXCsK.jpg?1


Yeah, you are right. Taikyouku Value doesn't indicate how physically powerful a God is, but it does indicate how strong his Law is. And that's their most powerful weapon. I use it to compare Gods. By default, Gods with a higher value are more powerful, rather than physically stronger. By the way, any chance of getting my hands on a scanned copy of KKK's VFB?

Chaos wrote:Kinda, when someone is at Throne they have the size of Shinza at the size they want, at Satanael it was one universe with Snake and Hajun was a metaverse+ , the hadou gods though are affected by the one at the throne, but it can as well just means they are limited to the being that is with their desire above them and just limited to it.


It's not a thing relating to will, as much as to the nature of the Dai Ten's Law. Suigin already was a multiverse, his Law simply boosted the Throne to encompass multiversal territory. Satanel's Law wasn't, so his Tendou Hisouten encompassed a universe alone. And he is still more powerful than every single non-boosted Gudou God we've seen.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author. Not calling anything on Dies Irae at all really, though there is a lot about it I find questionable, but I'll wait until I can hear more than vague fan theories and untranslated nonsense which is all I really get up until now before I do.

Anyway I called it already. This thread was going nowhere but south.

Anything constructive to add, more than unreasonably doubting things about a series you haven't even read? Because, you know, it's not like the concept of Japanese has been lost to us (Dies reference, god I seriously have to stop doing this). It's not nonsense, it can be learnt and read. For ToAru, you seem to be relying on fan translations? Do you now it has the same chances of being wrong than we have?
Done by a staff that are  that are basically professionals in their translations. Heck, I've got the the first three novels in English while having the entire series saved on my computer and the translations are nearly identical. Only differences were something's phrased a bit differently while still meaning the same thing. I'll be more specific in what I meant since it did come out wrong, I'll start reading the series if a site like Gareblogs does some more translating.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:44 am

ChaosKnight75 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
Mudamuda wrote:
trexalfa wrote:

Is it? I thought it was 65.

This is Yakou early when fighting the Tenma. He had a taikyoku of 2 at the beginning of the series and which was upgraded to 10 later in the story. 65 is final fight Yakou and post hajun Yakou.

Yakou was tearing 24 dimensionals space-faults to defend himself against Tenma Machina's attack at 10. He did die but Hajun was being hajun Mad

I think there's a misconception about Taikyoku, doesn't make you physically stronger that's a different index. That's why physical combat suddenly becomes important if your taikyoku is to close to each other. Otherwise if the difference is high enough all other stats doesn't matter because you wouldn't be cause a breach in the opposing law.

An example of this would the Reinhard vs Mercurius both of them have the same taikyoku but Reinhard is physically inferior to Mercurius because of the amount of souls that Mercuries holds. Having more souls at Atzilith is similar to how it works earlier in DI, More souls = better physicals stats, improved senses, tougher. and etc.

Taikyoku is an independent stat.

Stats are divided into 6 sections. 歪曲 is pre-taikyoku stats.

歪曲/太極  走力 咒力 気力  体力 筋力
http://i.imgur.com/HsEXCsK.jpg?1


Yeah, you are right. Taikyouku Value doesn't indicate how physically powerful a God is, but it does indicate how strong his Law is. And that's their most powerful weapon. I use it to compare Gods. By default, Gods with a higher value are more powerful, rather than physically stronger. By the way, any chance of getting my hands on a scanned copy of KKK's VFB?

Chaos wrote:Kinda, when someone is at Throne they have the size of Shinza at the size they want, at Satanael it was one universe with Snake and Hajun was a metaverse+ , the hadou gods though are affected by the one at the throne, but it can as well just means they are limited to the being that is with their desire above them and just limited to it.


It's not a thing relating to will, as much as to the nature of the Dai Ten's Law. Suigin already was a multiverse, his Law simply boosted the Throne to encompass multiversal territory. Satanel's Law wasn't, so his Tendou Hisouten encompassed a universe alone. And he is still more powerful than every single non-boosted Gudou God we've seen.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author. Not calling anything on Dies Irae at all really, though there is a lot about it I find questionable, but I'll wait until I can hear more than vague fan theories and untranslated nonsense which is all I really get up until now before I do.

Anyway I called it already. This thread was going nowhere but south.

Anything constructive to add, more than unreasonably doubting things about a series you haven't even read? Because, you know, it's not like the concept of Japanese has been lost to us (Dies reference, god I seriously have to stop doing this). It's not nonsense, it can be learnt and read. For ToAru, you seem to be relying on fan translations? Do you now it has the same chances of being wrong than we have?
Done by a staff that are  that are basically professionals in their translations. Heck, I've got the the first three novels in English while having the entire series saved on my computer and the translations are nearly identical. Only differences were something's phrased a bit differently while still meaning the same thing. I'll be more specific in what I meant since it did come out wrong, I'll start reading the series if a site like Gareblogs does some more translating.

Reading and translating are two different things. There are a fair number of people who have read the series, very few who have actually tried to translate it. And I'm very wary of "proffessional translators", I've seen some official translations kicked in the nuts by casual fan translators.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:20 am

Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Chaos wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:Fine. Reader's Digest Version of a Magic God and posted in Facts and Feats: They affects concepts, infinitely Multiversal in terms of scope, transcend causality and freely control it, can create, destroy or manipulate all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower than 3 dimensional space and that included, and can't be challenged unless the character is proven to be at their level. I recall Hajun beating the Hadou Gods with a wave of his hand and universe going boom each time he speaks. Figured he'd stalemate the current Magic Gods. They get all the above but with the addition that they have to divide their infinite powers infinitely to be at just a level where the universe can contain them. Anything less and any universe is destroyed by their presence. That's why they reside in an infinitely infinite world (goes on forever and the slightest gaps go on for infinity) to where concepts like time and distance don't exist and the place itself is outside all existence as non-existance. Should be noted too that Crowley whose implied to be stronger than Othinus but weaker than the other Magic Gods managed to destroy that place despite its description during his rampage before he got his ass handed to him by High Priest. All that and more on my Respect thread

Honestly, i will go with what you saw for now(i will reread to aru magic god arcs carefully) and like i said before to aru is not writed in omniscient narrator so words are exageration, but that can stay for another time.



But even with those feats, strongest being that Magic Gods could possibly beat is Satanael  as long as they fight without throne supporting him because he is  only Universal+, and that because his weakness is him commiting any sort of Sin and when he do he is erased.


I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.


In the series all Hadou gods can destroy others without using attacks, just by existing, Hajun erased all hadou gods with exception of Tenma/Ren but it was said he could have destroyed Tenma whenever he wanted, but Tenma would never be a treat to Hajun.

The likes of Mercurius,Reinhard are all metaversal+, and even conceptual abilities isn't able to do nothing against Hadou Gods, their desires surpass all concepts and they exist on their own they are said to be walking "universes" the power of their desires surpasses everything, and they are able to inflict abilities on others as much as they want as long their desire is stronger than the other example: Ren used time manipulation to stop time against characters that are acasual, but because his power as Hadou God he is able to ignore all their resistance and existing outside of time/acasuality and make the effects of time stop work on them anyway.

Just to point out that Satanel isn't universal. He is very well multiversal. His World consisted of just one universe, but that's not indicative of his power, as his Law just wasn't the kind to create a multiverse (Snake's however, does). By virtue of being a Hadou God, Satanel's Taikyouku Value should be above Gudou Gods, who are very well multiversal (his Value is 80, by the way). Plus, Soujirou and Shiori (two Gudou Gods with Values around 60) were trashed by a badly Throne emulated copy of Satanel's Taikyouku.

.

Kinda, when someone is at Throne they have the size of Shinza at the size they want, at Satanael it was one universe with Snake and Hajun was a metaverse+ , the hadou gods though are affected by the one at the throne, but it can as well just means they are limited to the being that is with their desire above them and just limited to it.


You know what.


ToAru is not that bad, but it has  a subjective narrator at times, and extremely excessive amount of people talking about things that can lead to misunderstanding, but theres one phrase done by one of the Majin Gods.

"I need to infinitely divide my power to infinite to not break the world"

See where it gets subjective? World cannot be used as the same word for infinite multiversal, and its a majin god saying, so his statement rule over Ollerus and all other statements so far, feats? No, thats just fancy writing in the rest like i said, the author is not omniscient, he gets subjective, he doubts and and if you think Dies Irae is suggsverse-tier because of its powerlevel, its pretty stupid , not mind offending the fans. The series are pretty well written, chunni, yes a LOT, but its well done, the characters developments are extrememly good, the actions are consistent, the system of power is not flawed the characters are interesting, the universe construction is interesting plus the novel has few bad points.

Seeing more, all the majin gods respectively says they are only able to break the "world", where is limited to the universe, when theres controversy from the characters itself of how strong they are, you don't go with high-ends, but low-ends that is Universal, Low-multiversal or multiversal+ at best going with anything from the subjective and fancy way of writing everytime on high-end is what means to be wanking a series.
Just world?

Thor ruled a single world while Othinus created infinite worlds. That was an obvious and insurmountable wall.

But that was not the current problem.

Almighty Thor stood before Kamijou as a real threat and Othinus could no longer use her power. To move on, Kamijou would have to defeat him with the fists of a puny human.

“Just to be clear, I don’t designate the coordinates. For one thing, coordinates on paper are meaningless in an ever-expanding universe.”

The Index series has countless layers that make up everything. One layer is the universe the story takes place in, another layer is that infinite world of nothing that the other Majins reside in. Barring that one, she had control over all layers and could create or destroy as many as she wanted.

Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author. Not calling anything on Dies Irae at all really, though there is a lot about it I find questionable, but I'll wait until I can hear more than vague fan theories and untranslated nonsense which is all I really get up until now before I do.

This thread was going nowhere but south anyway.


No, thats not how it works, its not because theres a translation in english that means it is correct you know that too right?

ToAru "world" does not embody other layers, it just doesn't the world doesn't.

Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author

I laughed, really, thats not how it works i ask you to read a bit about what being a narrator omniscient means, yes narrator can can have limited knowledge of events, omniscient and ToAru have a limited knowledge narrator, you can google if you want.

Thor is not even universal nor is carissa, is way of speaking they have nothing to backup that.

Also even if it was jedah Dohma or god emperor of mankind could easly solo this majin gods being universal or not, they have not resistance to mindfuck on that level, nor to soulfuck, and they cant deal with conceptual, mind you being in a dimension where time and space are meaningless can be done with just a high-level reality warping.


The Index series has countless layers that make up everything. One layer is the universe the story takes place in, another layer is that infinite world of nothing that the other Majins reside in. Barring that one, she had control over all layers and could create or destroy as many as she wanted.

Nope, its implied all the things, let me remind you another phrase

"The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about."

It explicit says a single universe, they are just above, but not really meaning they can do nothing in the scale you mentioned.

And no, you can't say that those layers are specific universes, or timelines, or whatever.

The majins gods stronger than Othinus themselves said in a singular that she "destroyed the world" , and world cannot make for infinite universes, also its like the author uses universe once and world in another time. Thats a flaw in the writing and it can't be take seriously in high-ends, its a bad writing and lead to misunderstanding, theres not a single person that read the original novel( in japanese) that believes in othinus or majin gods being multiversal, not one, not two, but entire group of VS forums , and well when i get to read something as subjective as ToAru, "World" and "universe" and those way that is translated can be considered obsolete its not much better than suggs writing, so i rather go with a low-end that makes they universal+ at best than trying to point out,subjective writing that can lead to a misunderstanding high-end.


-----------------Edit------------------------------------------------

You also can't claim that destroying all layers of existence in a 3-D scope below or above means that its destroying other universes, it can just mean you destroyed the universe as a whole not letting a single thing from its existence, and yeah theoricaly a universe have different layers but is just a single universe, and she can recreate this universe as much as she wants but she cannot affect infinite worlds in "worlds" meaning other universes, thats a misunderstanding of the writing in ToAru, its just bad to comprehend.

Its different you packing mercurius attack that literally says that he destroyed the whole shinza metaverse all concepts reduced it to nothingness.
All you had to do was ask.

"Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

That one layer happens to be the one where the Magic Gods reside in that's non-existent and quite huge in scope. Another layer is the reality where the series takes place in but your obviously ignoring the previous scan I posted. I love how the argument at this point is the author using actual words most people get over fan-terms like "metaverse" which I doubt Dies Irae used too.

Hell, the one you just used is saying World means something more then universe.

"The Earth, the universe, and the world were nothing"

And in the other Magic Gods' case, they had to to divide their powers infinitely, with each portion being just low enough to not destroy the universe with their presence and the only place they could otherwise be was an infinitely infinite world (even the slightest distances went on for infinity) of non-existance where concepts like time and space can't be applied and the place was effectively non-existent. And you got another feat from Crowley whose at least implied to be above Othinus destroying said place despite the description. Every quote I just said isn't merely universal.

Thor is not Universal? When there's a quote right there about what his ability does and his ability being based on Holism?

And Carissa, nope she can't destroy the universe per say, but her blade does allows her to cut through all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower then 3-Dimensions at once with her blade and the author no-less then 3 times explaining it as such.

1) She curtly swung down the sword.

In the next instant, Kamijou Touma saw a dimension being severed for the first time in his life.

Its range was a little less than 20 meters.

With a strange noise, something passed through along a line that Kamijou and Acqua had been on just a moment before. Something like a belt or a wall that was only about as wide as Curtana Original expanded. It was white and looked a little like a plastic model before it was colored. That object that looked not entirely complete appeared before Kamijou’s eyes.

“I could feel it when I was practicing before. This spiritual item is quite old, but its disposition seems to change a bit when someone wields it based on modern military knowledge. …Well, I’m sure my mother would be able to do something similar because she has the same nature.” A tone of enjoyment could be heard in Carissa’s voice. “Did you know that the cross section you get by slicing a 3 dimensional object is 2 dimensional? And slicing a 2 dimensional object creates a 1 dimensional cross section.”

With a clunk, the mysterious belt-shaped object that had been irrationally floating in the air fell to the ground right next to Kamijou.

It felt something like pottery, but it was actually extremely heavy despite how it looked. Even after it fell, it continued to sink into the black soil.

Similarly, when a dimension higher than our 3 dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a 3 dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this.”

2) “This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a 3 dimensional world.”

(What…?)

Kamijou was completely dumbfounded.

If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two.

Even so, Kamijou did not feel any fear. The scale was simply too great. Apparently the universe was constantly expanding due to the big bang, but no one could concretely feel the universe expanding with their 5 senses. Second Princess Carissa was using a power on that level.

“All Dimensions Severing Spell.”

3) Carissa held up her sword that could slice through not just a manmade nuclear shelter but the earth and the universe itself.

But please, continue the denial. This feat of Carissa's sword being able to cut all higher and lower dimensions then 3-D simultaneously and the consistently stated feat of teleportation involving going into the the 11th dimension and back is where Magic Gods get their dimensional feats since the author has said no less then twice now they overcome dimensions in a series where dimensions is referring to those higher spatial dimensions. Everything said you've ignored. Sure are resorting to denying a lot of evidence to keep yourself from believing what you want to hear.

My, my at attemping to use the lack of very specific feats to undermine a character so that the likes of Jedah Dohma or God Emperor of Mankind can beat them as a way to argue. By your argument, Misaki can mindrape them /:. Plenty of conceptual stuff I've already brought up, claiming to control concepts in itself as an argument is worthless. And the argument can simply be said that neither of them can't do a thing to mindrape opponents leagues beyond their level but hey, I'll play your game.

Magic Gods control the concept of causality and one has to transcend causality to not be affected by them recreating everything as stated by St. Germain on how it survived and backed up by the fact that Arisa (there's a concept right there, as she's the concept of miracles) who can affect causality to some extent to bring about outcomes that otherwise had no chance of happening (hence what a miracle is) was still among Othinus' victims. Haven't heard a thing about any the Nazis being above causality, so even Giorno Giovanna solos the verse if were really going there.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Chaos on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:07 am

Thor is not Universal? When there's a quote right there about what his ability does and his ability being based on Holism?

Carissa held up her sword that could slice through not just a manmade nuclear shelter but the earth and the universe itself.

Comparing God emperor and jedah with Misaki.

Look, its worthless to even try to proof something to you, you also ignore my posts and ignore that the series are writtten from the point of view of kamijou, subjective and most of feats cannot be taken as a feat, if you can't comprehend the text interpration i can't do nothing i won't even bother, you're taking chewed feat as literally. And i can't do nothing about it, i don't bother counter-arguing your arguments, but the fact you actually can't understand even the kind of narrator and its knowledge makes impossible to counter-argument you, thats my point.

Ask anyone that have their fucking time to read the series decently, all of them acknowledge that the author the narrator is not omniscient, and fancy writing does not back up your claims i'm not ignoring, your claims that hold no value.

For Dies Irae metaverse+, yeah mostly a fan-term but the attack is literally means "Destroy the infinite multiverse with infinite number of structures with infinite parallel, multi-dimensional universes within themselves" and other even stronger.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:16 am

ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Chaos wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:Fine. Reader's Digest Version of a Magic God and posted in Facts and Feats: They affects concepts, infinitely Multiversal in terms of scope, transcend causality and freely control it, can create, destroy or manipulate all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower than 3 dimensional space and that included, and can't be challenged unless the character is proven to be at their level. I recall Hajun beating the Hadou Gods with a wave of his hand and universe going boom each time he speaks. Figured he'd stalemate the current Magic Gods. They get all the above but with the addition that they have to divide their infinite powers infinitely to be at just a level where the universe can contain them. Anything less and any universe is destroyed by their presence. That's why they reside in an infinitely infinite world (goes on forever and the slightest gaps go on for infinity) to where concepts like time and distance don't exist and the place itself is outside all existence as non-existance. Should be noted too that Crowley whose implied to be stronger than Othinus but weaker than the other Magic Gods managed to destroy that place despite its description during his rampage before he got his ass handed to him by High Priest. All that and more on my Respect thread

Honestly, i will go with what you saw for now(i will reread to aru magic god arcs carefully) and like i said before to aru is not writed in omniscient narrator so words are exageration, but that can stay for another time.



But even with those feats, strongest being that Magic Gods could possibly beat is Satanael  as long as they fight without throne supporting him because he is  only Universal+, and that because his weakness is him commiting any sort of Sin and when he do he is erased.


I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.


In the series all Hadou gods can destroy others without using attacks, just by existing, Hajun erased all hadou gods with exception of Tenma/Ren but it was said he could have destroyed Tenma whenever he wanted, but Tenma would never be a treat to Hajun.

The likes of Mercurius,Reinhard are all metaversal+, and even conceptual abilities isn't able to do nothing against Hadou Gods, their desires surpass all concepts and they exist on their own they are said to be walking "universes" the power of their desires surpasses everything, and they are able to inflict abilities on others as much as they want as long their desire is stronger than the other example: Ren used time manipulation to stop time against characters that are acasual, but because his power as Hadou God he is able to ignore all their resistance and existing outside of time/acasuality and make the effects of time stop work on them anyway.

Just to point out that Satanel isn't universal. He is very well multiversal. His World consisted of just one universe, but that's not indicative of his power, as his Law just wasn't the kind to create a multiverse (Snake's however, does). By virtue of being a Hadou God, Satanel's Taikyouku Value should be above Gudou Gods, who are very well multiversal (his Value is 80, by the way). Plus, Soujirou and Shiori (two Gudou Gods with Values around 60) were trashed by a badly Throne emulated copy of Satanel's Taikyouku.

.

Kinda, when someone is at Throne they have the size of Shinza at the size they want, at Satanael it was one universe with Snake and Hajun was a metaverse+ , the hadou gods though are affected by the one at the throne, but it can as well just means they are limited to the being that is with their desire above them and just limited to it.


You know what.


ToAru is not that bad, but it has  a subjective narrator at times, and extremely excessive amount of people talking about things that can lead to misunderstanding, but theres one phrase done by one of the Majin Gods.

"I need to infinitely divide my power to infinite to not break the world"

See where it gets subjective? World cannot be used as the same word for infinite multiversal, and its a majin god saying, so his statement rule over Ollerus and all other statements so far, feats? No, thats just fancy writing in the rest like i said, the author is not omniscient, he gets subjective, he doubts and and if you think Dies Irae is suggsverse-tier because of its powerlevel, its pretty stupid , not mind offending the fans. The series are pretty well written, chunni, yes a LOT, but its well done, the characters developments are extrememly good, the actions are consistent, the system of power is not flawed the characters are interesting, the universe construction is interesting plus the novel has few bad points.

Seeing more, all the majin gods respectively says they are only able to break the "world", where is limited to the universe, when theres controversy from the characters itself of how strong they are, you don't go with high-ends, but low-ends that is Universal, Low-multiversal or multiversal+ at best going with anything from the subjective and fancy way of writing everytime on high-end is what means to be wanking a series.
Just world?

Thor ruled a single world while Othinus created infinite worlds. That was an obvious and insurmountable wall.

But that was not the current problem.

Almighty Thor stood before Kamijou as a real threat and Othinus could no longer use her power. To move on, Kamijou would have to defeat him with the fists of a puny human.

“Just to be clear, I don’t designate the coordinates. For one thing, coordinates on paper are meaningless in an ever-expanding universe.”

The Index series has countless layers that make up everything. One layer is the universe the story takes place in, another layer is that infinite world of nothing that the other Majins reside in. Barring that one, she had control over all layers and could create or destroy as many as she wanted.

Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author. Not calling anything on Dies Irae at all really, though there is a lot about it I find questionable, but I'll wait until I can hear more than vague fan theories and untranslated nonsense which is all I really get up until now before I do.

This thread was going nowhere but south anyway.


No, thats not how it works, its not because theres a translation in english that means it is correct you know that too right?

ToAru "world" does not embody other layers, it just doesn't the world doesn't.

Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author

I laughed, really, thats not how it works i ask you to read a bit about what being a narrator omniscient means, yes narrator can can have limited knowledge of events, omniscient and ToAru have a limited knowledge narrator, you can google if you want.

Thor is not even universal nor is carissa, is way of speaking they have nothing to backup that.

Also even if it was jedah Dohma or god emperor of mankind could easly solo this majin gods being universal or not, they have not resistance to mindfuck on that level, nor to soulfuck, and they cant deal with conceptual, mind you being in a dimension where time and space are meaningless can be done with just a high-level reality warping.


The Index series has countless layers that make up everything. One layer is the universe the story takes place in, another layer is that infinite world of nothing that the other Majins reside in. Barring that one, she had control over all layers and could create or destroy as many as she wanted.

Nope, its implied all the things, let me remind you another phrase

"The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about."

It explicit says a single universe, they are just above, but not really meaning they can do nothing in the scale you mentioned.

And no, you can't say that those layers are specific universes, or timelines, or whatever.

The majins gods stronger than Othinus themselves said in a singular that she "destroyed the world" , and world cannot make for infinite universes, also its like the author uses universe once and world in another time. Thats a flaw in the writing and it can't be take seriously in high-ends, its a bad writing and lead to misunderstanding, theres not a single person that read the original novel( in japanese) that believes in othinus or majin gods being multiversal, not one, not two, but entire group of VS forums , and well when i get to read something as subjective as ToAru, "World" and "universe" and those way that is translated can be considered obsolete its not much better than suggs writing, so i rather go with a low-end that makes they universal+ at best than trying to point out,subjective writing that can lead to a misunderstanding high-end.


-----------------Edit------------------------------------------------

You also can't claim that destroying all layers of existence in a 3-D scope below or above means that its destroying other universes, it can just mean you destroyed the universe as a whole not letting a single thing from its existence, and yeah theoricaly a universe have different layers but is just a single universe, and she can recreate this universe as much as she wants but she cannot affect infinite worlds in "worlds" meaning other universes, thats a misunderstanding of the writing in ToAru, its just bad to comprehend.

Its different you packing mercurius attack that literally says that he destroyed the whole shinza metaverse all concepts reduced it to nothingness.
All you had to do was ask.

"Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

That one layer happens to be the one where the Magic Gods reside in that's non-existent and quite huge in scope. Another layer is the reality where the series takes place in but your obviously ignoring the previous scan I posted. I love how the argument at this point is the author using actual words most people get over fan-terms like "metaverse" which I doubt Dies Irae used too.

Hell, the one you just used is saying World means something more then universe.

"The Earth, the universe, and the world were nothing"

And in the other Magic Gods' case, they had to to divide their powers infinitely, with each portion being just low enough to not destroy the universe with their presence and the only place they could otherwise be was an infinitely infinite world (even the slightest distances went on for infinity) of non-existance where concepts like time and space can't be applied and the place was effectively non-existent. And you got another feat from Crowley whose at least implied to be above Othinus destroying said place despite the description. Every quote I just said isn't merely universal.

Thor is not Universal? When there's a quote right there about what his ability does and his ability being based on Holism?

And Carissa, nope she can't destroy the universe per say, but her blade does allows her to cut through all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower then 3-Dimensions at once with her blade and the author no-less then 3 times explaining it as such.

1) She curtly swung down the sword.

In the next instant, Kamijou Touma saw a dimension being severed for the first time in his life.

Its range was a little less than 20 meters.

With a strange noise, something passed through along a line that Kamijou and Acqua had been on just a moment before. Something like a belt or a wall that was only about as wide as Curtana Original expanded. It was white and looked a little like a plastic model before it was colored. That object that looked not entirely complete appeared before Kamijou’s eyes.

“I could feel it when I was practicing before. This spiritual item is quite old, but its disposition seems to change a bit when someone wields it based on modern military knowledge. …Well, I’m sure my mother would be able to do something similar because she has the same nature.” A tone of enjoyment could be heard in Carissa’s voice. “Did you know that the cross section you get by slicing a 3 dimensional object is 2 dimensional? And slicing a 2 dimensional object creates a 1 dimensional cross section.”

With a clunk, the mysterious belt-shaped object that had been irrationally floating in the air fell to the ground right next to Kamijou.

It felt something like pottery, but it was actually extremely heavy despite how it looked. Even after it fell, it continued to sink into the black soil.

Similarly, when a dimension higher than our 3 dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a 3 dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this.”

2) “This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a 3 dimensional world.”

(What…?)

Kamijou was completely dumbfounded.

If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two.

Even so, Kamijou did not feel any fear. The scale was simply too great. Apparently the universe was constantly expanding due to the big bang, but no one could concretely feel the universe expanding with their 5 senses. Second Princess Carissa was using a power on that level.

“All Dimensions Severing Spell.”

3) Carissa held up her sword that could slice through not just a manmade nuclear shelter but the earth and the universe itself.

But please, continue the denial. This feat of Carissa's sword being able to cut all higher and lower dimensions then 3-D simultaneously and the consistently stated feat of teleportation involving going into the the 11th dimension and back is where Magic Gods get their dimensional feats since the author has said no less then twice now they overcome dimensions in a series where dimensions is referring to those higher spatial dimensions. Everything said you've ignored. Sure are resorting to denying a lot of evidence to keep yourself from believing what you want to hear.

My, my at attemping to use the lack of very specific feats to undermine a character so that the likes of Jedah Dohma or God Emperor of Mankind can beat them as a way to argue. By your argument, Misaki can mindrape them /:. Plenty of conceptual stuff I've already brought up, claiming to control concepts in itself as an argument is worthless. And the argument can simply be said that neither of them can't do a thing to mindrape opponents leagues beyond their level but hey, I'll play your game.

Magic Gods control the concept of causality and one has to transcend causality to not be affected by them recreating everything as stated by St. Germain on how it survived and backed up by the fact that Arisa (there's a concept right there, as she's the concept of miracles) who can affect causality to some extent to bring about outcomes that otherwise had no chance of happening (hence what a miracle is) was still among Othinus' victims. Haven't heard a thing about any the Nazis being above causality, so even Giorno Giovanna solos the verse if were really going there.

Just for info, about causality, yes they do. Any concept you can think of is a bitch to them. The concept of causality gets slashed apart by Soujirou, Shiori slams her fist into it, Yakou just drops a fucking meteor on it, Habaki, Rindou and Ryusuui also do their thing. And this is just the Gudou Gods, Suigin's Atziluth defies causality altogether (he is a living paradox, among other things) and they can just do the same the Gudou Gods do (Reinhard has like, a million ways of doing it thanks to his Legion).

Second, Dies Irae never uses metaverse, and I go with multiverse because the logic some people use to call it a metaverse seems flawed, at least to me anyway.

Third, why do you keep referencing Nazis? Do you know that, except from Reinhard (and discounting his Legion), none of them are Nazis, right?

Fourth, relying one ACF for info is bad, very bad. Because what Chaos posted above is their description of Disce Liebens, I believe. And until I get to that part myself, I'm not buying it.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:21 am

Chaos wrote:
Thor is not Universal? When there's a quote right there about what his ability does and his ability being based on Holism?

Carissa held up her sword that could slice through not just a manmade nuclear shelter but the earth and the universe itself.

Comparing God emperor and jedah with Misaki.

Look, its worthless to even try to proof something to you, you also ignore my posts and ignore that the series are writtten from the point of view of kamijou, subjective and most of feats cannot be taken as a feat, if you can't comprehend the text interpration i can't do nothing i won't even bother, you're taking chewed feat  as literally. And i can't do nothing about it, i don't bother counter-arguing your arguments, but the fact you actually can't understand even the kind of narrator and its knowledge makes impossible to counter-argument you, thats my point.

Ask anyone that have their fucking time to read the series decently, all of them acknowledge that the author the narrator is not omniscient, and fancy writing does not back up your claims i'm not ignoring, your claims that hold no value.

For Dies Irae metaverse+, yeah mostly a fan-term but the attack is literally means "Destroy the infinite multiverse with infinite number of structures with infinite parallel, multi-dimensional universes within themselves" and other even stronger.
Your logic. You said it yourself. There's no mind-raping  resisting feats from them, thus anybody who can do it can according to you. Don't try to beat around the bush of your own failed logic. I've taken your posts and replied to them accordingly. All you've done is deny. And nope, the story isn't written from his point of view. Hell half the time, it's focused on someone else other then Touma, like the two other main protagonists. Kamijou doesn't say anything more then his own quotes and thoughts, the one telling the story is the author since the series is written in the 3rd Person. Look at all those infinities. And mine's the one that gets joked at as being Suggs writing. Not that I was going to say it was but hey, some of you guys get pretty touchy and judgmental about other series when the same can be said about your own. You presented your proof on why your God-Mode Nazis are Meta-Hyper-versal++++ whatever fanfiction term you guys use, I presented mine.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:32 am

trexalfa wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Chaos wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:Fine. Reader's Digest Version of a Magic God and posted in Facts and Feats: They affects concepts, infinitely Multiversal in terms of scope, transcend causality and freely control it, can create, destroy or manipulate all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower than 3 dimensional space and that included, and can't be challenged unless the character is proven to be at their level. I recall Hajun beating the Hadou Gods with a wave of his hand and universe going boom each time he speaks. Figured he'd stalemate the current Magic Gods. They get all the above but with the addition that they have to divide their infinite powers infinitely to be at just a level where the universe can contain them. Anything less and any universe is destroyed by their presence. That's why they reside in an infinitely infinite world (goes on forever and the slightest gaps go on for infinity) to where concepts like time and distance don't exist and the place itself is outside all existence as non-existance. Should be noted too that Crowley whose implied to be stronger than Othinus but weaker than the other Magic Gods managed to destroy that place despite its description during his rampage before he got his ass handed to him by High Priest. All that and more on my Respect thread

Honestly, i will go with what you saw for now(i will reread to aru magic god arcs carefully) and like i said before to aru is not writed in omniscient narrator so words are exageration, but that can stay for another time.



But even with those feats, strongest being that Magic Gods could possibly beat is Satanael  as long as they fight without throne supporting him because he is  only Universal+, and that because his weakness is him commiting any sort of Sin and when he do he is erased.


I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.


In the series all Hadou gods can destroy others without using attacks, just by existing, Hajun erased all hadou gods with exception of Tenma/Ren but it was said he could have destroyed Tenma whenever he wanted, but Tenma would never be a treat to Hajun.

The likes of Mercurius,Reinhard are all metaversal+, and even conceptual abilities isn't able to do nothing against Hadou Gods, their desires surpass all concepts and they exist on their own they are said to be walking "universes" the power of their desires surpasses everything, and they are able to inflict abilities on others as much as they want as long their desire is stronger than the other example: Ren used time manipulation to stop time against characters that are acasual, but because his power as Hadou God he is able to ignore all their resistance and existing outside of time/acasuality and make the effects of time stop work on them anyway.

Just to point out that Satanel isn't universal. He is very well multiversal. His World consisted of just one universe, but that's not indicative of his power, as his Law just wasn't the kind to create a multiverse (Snake's however, does). By virtue of being a Hadou God, Satanel's Taikyouku Value should be above Gudou Gods, who are very well multiversal (his Value is 80, by the way). Plus, Soujirou and Shiori (two Gudou Gods with Values around 60) were trashed by a badly Throne emulated copy of Satanel's Taikyouku.

.

Kinda, when someone is at Throne they have the size of Shinza at the size they want, at Satanael it was one universe with Snake and Hajun was a metaverse+ , the hadou gods though are affected by the one at the throne, but it can as well just means they are limited to the being that is with their desire above them and just limited to it.


You know what.


ToAru is not that bad, but it has  a subjective narrator at times, and extremely excessive amount of people talking about things that can lead to misunderstanding, but theres one phrase done by one of the Majin Gods.

"I need to infinitely divide my power to infinite to not break the world"

See where it gets subjective? World cannot be used as the same word for infinite multiversal, and its a majin god saying, so his statement rule over Ollerus and all other statements so far, feats? No, thats just fancy writing in the rest like i said, the author is not omniscient, he gets subjective, he doubts and and if you think Dies Irae is suggsverse-tier because of its powerlevel, its pretty stupid , not mind offending the fans. The series are pretty well written, chunni, yes a LOT, but its well done, the characters developments are extrememly good, the actions are consistent, the system of power is not flawed the characters are interesting, the universe construction is interesting plus the novel has few bad points.

Seeing more, all the majin gods respectively says they are only able to break the "world", where is limited to the universe, when theres controversy from the characters itself of how strong they are, you don't go with high-ends, but low-ends that is Universal, Low-multiversal or multiversal+ at best going with anything from the subjective and fancy way of writing everytime on high-end is what means to be wanking a series.
Just world?

Thor ruled a single world while Othinus created infinite worlds. That was an obvious and insurmountable wall.

But that was not the current problem.

Almighty Thor stood before Kamijou as a real threat and Othinus could no longer use her power. To move on, Kamijou would have to defeat him with the fists of a puny human.

“Just to be clear, I don’t designate the coordinates. For one thing, coordinates on paper are meaningless in an ever-expanding universe.”

The Index series has countless layers that make up everything. One layer is the universe the story takes place in, another layer is that infinite world of nothing that the other Majins reside in. Barring that one, she had control over all layers and could create or destroy as many as she wanted.

Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author. Not calling anything on Dies Irae at all really, though there is a lot about it I find questionable, but I'll wait until I can hear more than vague fan theories and untranslated nonsense which is all I really get up until now before I do.

This thread was going nowhere but south anyway.


No, thats not how it works, its not because theres a translation in english that means it is correct you know that too right?

ToAru "world" does not embody other layers, it just doesn't the world doesn't.

Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author

I laughed, really, thats not how it works i ask you to read a bit about what being a narrator omniscient means, yes narrator can can have limited knowledge of events, omniscient and ToAru have a limited knowledge narrator, you can google if you want.

Thor is not even universal nor is carissa, is way of speaking they have nothing to backup that.

Also even if it was jedah Dohma or god emperor of mankind could easly solo this majin gods being universal or not, they have not resistance to mindfuck on that level, nor to soulfuck, and they cant deal with conceptual, mind you being in a dimension where time and space are meaningless can be done with just a high-level reality warping.


The Index series has countless layers that make up everything. One layer is the universe the story takes place in, another layer is that infinite world of nothing that the other Majins reside in. Barring that one, she had control over all layers and could create or destroy as many as she wanted.

Nope, its implied all the things, let me remind you another phrase

"The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about."

It explicit says a single universe, they are just above, but not really meaning they can do nothing in the scale you mentioned.

And no, you can't say that those layers are specific universes, or timelines, or whatever.

The majins gods stronger than Othinus themselves said in a singular that she "destroyed the world" , and world cannot make for infinite universes, also its like the author uses universe once and world in another time. Thats a flaw in the writing and it can't be take seriously in high-ends, its a bad writing and lead to misunderstanding, theres not a single person that read the original novel( in japanese) that believes in othinus or majin gods being multiversal, not one, not two, but entire group of VS forums , and well when i get to read something as subjective as ToAru, "World" and "universe" and those way that is translated can be considered obsolete its not much better than suggs writing, so i rather go with a low-end that makes they universal+ at best than trying to point out,subjective writing that can lead to a misunderstanding high-end.


-----------------Edit------------------------------------------------

You also can't claim that destroying all layers of existence in a 3-D scope below or above means that its destroying other universes, it can just mean you destroyed the universe as a whole not letting a single thing from its existence, and yeah theoricaly a universe have different layers but is just a single universe, and she can recreate this universe as much as she wants but she cannot affect infinite worlds in "worlds" meaning other universes, thats a misunderstanding of the writing in ToAru, its just bad to comprehend.

Its different you packing mercurius attack that literally says that he destroyed the whole shinza metaverse all concepts reduced it to nothingness.
All you had to do was ask.

"Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

That one layer happens to be the one where the Magic Gods reside in that's non-existent and quite huge in scope. Another layer is the reality where the series takes place in but your obviously ignoring the previous scan I posted. I love how the argument at this point is the author using actual words most people get over fan-terms like "metaverse" which I doubt Dies Irae used too.

Hell, the one you just used is saying World means something more then universe.

"The Earth, the universe, and the world were nothing"

And in the other Magic Gods' case, they had to to divide their powers infinitely, with each portion being just low enough to not destroy the universe with their presence and the only place they could otherwise be was an infinitely infinite world (even the slightest distances went on for infinity) of non-existance where concepts like time and space can't be applied and the place was effectively non-existent. And you got another feat from Crowley whose at least implied to be above Othinus destroying said place despite the description. Every quote I just said isn't merely universal.

Thor is not Universal? When there's a quote right there about what his ability does and his ability being based on Holism?

And Carissa, nope she can't destroy the universe per say, but her blade does allows her to cut through all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower then 3-Dimensions at once with her blade and the author no-less then 3 times explaining it as such.

1) She curtly swung down the sword.

In the next instant, Kamijou Touma saw a dimension being severed for the first time in his life.

Its range was a little less than 20 meters.

With a strange noise, something passed through along a line that Kamijou and Acqua had been on just a moment before. Something like a belt or a wall that was only about as wide as Curtana Original expanded. It was white and looked a little like a plastic model before it was colored. That object that looked not entirely complete appeared before Kamijou’s eyes.

“I could feel it when I was practicing before. This spiritual item is quite old, but its disposition seems to change a bit when someone wields it based on modern military knowledge. …Well, I’m sure my mother would be able to do something similar because she has the same nature.” A tone of enjoyment could be heard in Carissa’s voice. “Did you know that the cross section you get by slicing a 3 dimensional object is 2 dimensional? And slicing a 2 dimensional object creates a 1 dimensional cross section.”

With a clunk, the mysterious belt-shaped object that had been irrationally floating in the air fell to the ground right next to Kamijou.

It felt something like pottery, but it was actually extremely heavy despite how it looked. Even after it fell, it continued to sink into the black soil.

Similarly, when a dimension higher than our 3 dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a 3 dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this.”

2) “This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a 3 dimensional world.”

(What…?)

Kamijou was completely dumbfounded.

If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two.

Even so, Kamijou did not feel any fear. The scale was simply too great. Apparently the universe was constantly expanding due to the big bang, but no one could concretely feel the universe expanding with their 5 senses. Second Princess Carissa was using a power on that level.

“All Dimensions Severing Spell.”

3) Carissa held up her sword that could slice through not just a manmade nuclear shelter but the earth and the universe itself.

But please, continue the denial. This feat of Carissa's sword being able to cut all higher and lower dimensions then 3-D simultaneously and the consistently stated feat of teleportation involving going into the the 11th dimension and back is where Magic Gods get their dimensional feats since the author has said no less then twice now they overcome dimensions in a series where dimensions is referring to those higher spatial dimensions. Everything said you've ignored. Sure are resorting to denying a lot of evidence to keep yourself from believing what you want to hear.

My, my at attemping to use the lack of very specific feats to undermine a character so that the likes of Jedah Dohma or God Emperor of Mankind can beat them as a way to argue. By your argument, Misaki can mindrape them /:. Plenty of conceptual stuff I've already brought up, claiming to control concepts in itself as an argument is worthless. And the argument can simply be said that neither of them can't do a thing to mindrape opponents leagues beyond their level but hey, I'll play your game.

Magic Gods control the concept of causality and one has to transcend causality to not be affected by them recreating everything as stated by St. Germain on how it survived and backed up by the fact that Arisa (there's a concept right there, as she's the concept of miracles) who can affect causality to some extent to bring about outcomes that otherwise had no chance of happening (hence what a miracle is) was still among Othinus' victims. Haven't heard a thing about any the Nazis being above causality, so even Giorno Giovanna solos the verse if were really going there.

Just for info, about causality, yes they do. Any concept you can think of is a bitch to them. The concept of causality gets slashed apart by Soujirou, Shiori slams her fist into it, Yakou just drops a fucking meteor on it, Habaki, Rindou and Ryusuui also do their thing. And this is just the Gudou Gods, Suigin's Atziluth defies causality altogether (he is a living paradox, among other things) and they can just do the same the Gudou Gods do (Reinhard has like, a million ways of doing it thanks to his Legion).

Second, Dies Irae never uses metaverse, and I go with multiverse because the logic some people use to call it a metaverse seems flawed, at least to me anyway.

Third, why do you keep referencing Nazis? Do you know that, except from Reinhard (and discounting his Legion), none of them are Nazis, right?

Fourth, relying one ACF for info is bad, very bad. Because what Chaos posted above is their description of Disce Liebens, I believe. And until I get to that part myself, I'm not buying it.
Let's see the feat. I don't doubt you but controlling concepts alone varies and can be vague and doesn't ensure your above causality. Just ask Lambadelta from Umineko. Is there a quote on them resisting causality? I don't buy terms you'd hear from some amateur fanfiction either. It's just you pretty much have to or at least prove a character is on that same level in a debate. As for the Nazis thing, I can't exactly know a series that I can't find a credible source to read but both the premise and what fans tell me led me to believe that.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:55 am

I'm going to break the quote chain because this is getting tedious on a tablet.

Anyway, Suigin (you are likely to know him as Mercurius) was born thanks to a paradox created by Satanel (previous Dai Ten) and his Atziluth is causality defying. Literally, his whole timeline makes no damn sense (he got his Atziluth before developing his craving). His Atziluth, Acta est Fabula, is multiversal reset button, it sets everything to the beginning. And it affects other Hadou Gods below him (didn't it also affect Hajun of all people?). Around this, he gets some other abilities, such as using alternate universes to generate a paradox that erases a good number of universes (and this feat should be utterly casual, since Gudou Gods are capable of destroying millions of universes in an instant). Once they attack a concept, it ceases to apply, although I guess this depends on what attack is used I guess (while Machina's Takyouku erases them, Kai's poisons them).
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:11 am

Sweet, now do you have the quotes for it? Anybody can say what their character can do with their own interpretation as some Die Irae fans here love to preach to me even when I back it up with quotes, so do you have them? The fact that even Hajun can be affected by causality is already an argument though.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Chaos on Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:10 pm

Look kid, thats better for yourself, thats not how it works.

I`m not trying to insult but since you`re already seem as a joke on internet i would like to give you some advices

1) - Learn what is figure of speech and what is not.

2) - Learn whats PoV

3) - Learn what kind of narrator and which is used when you`re reading.

4) - You still fail to realize that you can`t counter-argue when you proved that you don`t understand what is reading, you know fancy writing can lead to a lot of mistakes so be aware.

5) - Your logic makes no sense, even if i counter-argue and post what is a figure of speech whats a PoV and why the narrator of the series is limited omniscient you won't accept it. Hell i don`t even know why "layer of existence" "dimensions" and others things is considered as universed sized objects,makes no sense even with what you called "backup for saying that X is a universe or a concept" only on your interpration, but i can see why its okay Smile .

6) - Reread ToAru, read other series, and study a bit

7) - You just asked for prints that won't get you nothing, also you can't really say anything about asking feats when you read a fan-translation, how do you know what you reading is correct from the original thing? You don't, thats hypocrisy

Anybody can say what their character can do with their own interpretation as some

Yes and you're the person that is example of that, because differently i actually searched through the internet, compared with differently translation, with different fans, differents VS discussions, and fans that dislikes VS discussions, and then i started reading the game, even if i could post something it wouldn't be in english because a good portion of description makes no sense if you translate direct to english, even if you translate to korean or chinese then to english you won't get it perfectly, thats a issue of its own, its not from last year that i know dies irae it has been years and years searching of it and its things to understand everything i miss.

Thats a advice, you proved everythingi can counter-argue what you have posted in anything without even needing to elaborate my posts, hell from your post i can say that "just because theres fancy words and i like the series , this and this will make they able to do X!" thats too much for someone seriously, stop it, just stop.

I don't want to get in mess so i won't even bother, its not a discussion if the other part already started by making no sense, and failing to understanding what reading is, thats why i never, and until you proof your arguments(gramatical wise) and logical wise in a decent way, cause everything you did until only makes you look bad, thats also one of the reasons i saw people avoid coming to this forum because of people like you, so theres my advice for you.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:28 pm

Chaos wrote:Look kid, thats better for yourself, thats not how it works.

I`m not trying to insult but since you`re already seem as a joke on internet i would like to give you some advices

1) - Learn what is figure of speech and what is not.

2) - Learn whats PoV

3) - Learn what kind of narrator and which is used when you`re reading.

4) - You still fail to realize that you can`t counter-argue when you proved that you don`t  understand what is reading, you know fancy writing can lead to a lot of mistakes so be aware.

5) - Your logic makes no sense, even if i counter-argue and post what is a figure of speech whats a PoV and why the narrator of the series is limited omniscient you won't accept it. Hell i don`t even know why "layer of existence" "dimensions" and others things is considered as universed sized objects,makes no sense even with what you called "backup for saying that X is a universe or a concept" only on your interpration, but i can see why its okay Smile .

6) - Reread ToAru, read other series, and study a bit

7) - You just asked for prints that won't get you nothing, also you can't really say anything about asking feats when you read a fan-translation, how do you know what you reading is correct from the original thing? You don't, thats hypocrisy

Anybody can say what their character can do with their own interpretation as some

Yes and you're the person that is example of that, because differently i actually searched through the internet, compared with differently translation, with different fans, differents VS discussions, and fans that dislikes VS discussions, and then i started reading the game, even if i could post something it wouldn't be in english because a good portion of description makes no sense if you translate direct to english, even if you translate to korean or chinese then to english you won't get it perfectly, thats a issue of its own, its not from last year that i know dies irae it has been years and years searching of it and its things to understand everything i miss.

Thats a advice, you proved everythingi can counter-argue what you have posted in anything without even needing to elaborate my posts, hell from your post i can say that "just because theres fancy words and i like the series , this and this will make they able to do X!" thats too much for someone seriously, stop it, just stop.

I don't want to get in mess so i won't even bother, its not a discussion if the other part already started by making no sense, and failing to understanding what reading is, thats why i never, and until you proof your arguments(gramatical wise) and logical wise in a decent way, cause everything you did until only makes you look bad, thats also one of the reasons i saw people avoid coming to this forum because of people like you, so theres my advice for you.
Careful little boy. Your already a fine example of the type of clowns I can't seriously and using big words you copy and pasted from others to make yourself feel smart and informed isn't going to change that.

You tell me why it's a figure of speech and what isn't. You tell me why everything about the author of Index says about say dimensions is a figure of speech or not. You seem to be confusing it with you resorting to denial to everything I've posted. You can't just chalk off everything said as a figure of speech as your way to argue especially since what I get of Dies Irae I can do the same and pretty much say everything spewed in that series is a figure of speech. And I wouldn't be too far off the mark.

Did my homework on PoV and narrations, you should work on first person and third person narratives.

Already explained the issue with layers and why their universes with quotes from the series. Hell other series like Marvel treat their universes and dimensions as layers of a multiverse. One layer or phase is that infinitely infinite world the Magic Gods reside in, another is the phase that makes up the Index verse. And the author has said no less then several times that barring the aforementioned one of the Magic Gods, Othinus controlled all phases and could create and end and many as she wanted and twice now he's said Magic Gods could manipulate all dimensions while surpassing all of them. Forgive me if I'm not going to hold your hand while I'm explaining it.

Already read and know the Index series quite well, you can't even explain your own right XD That's cool that you got all those sources to do the thinking for you since you obviously can't think for yourself. I do it the simple and reliable way by knowing for myself to differentiate facts from bullshit by informing myself of the source itself, which I'm getting more and more as being the issue with Dies Irae since I can't seem to find a way to get one.

And the rest of your ramblings I'm guessing is you yourself admitting Dies Irae translations are unreliable, interpretive, and that nothing is certain while saying I'm wrong off a literally nothing but you not wanting to hear whats clearly explained? Nice. Can't say I'm the least bit surprised. Same way Suggs got Getbackers to be the hyped shit it was until it became accessible to read, so don't even try this game with me.


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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:53 pm

ChaosKnight75 wrote:Sweet, now do you have the quotes for it? Anybody can say what their character can do with their own interpretation as some Die Irae fans here love to preach to me even when I back it up with quotes, so do you have them? The fact that even Hajun can be affected by causality is already an argument though.


Unfortunately, I don't have any quotes on me right now. As you surely understand, storming through a 50+ hour long novel (which I don't even have a full save file of, which throws a wrench into everything cause the routes are unlocked as you progress) while trying to locate quotes for a single match is pretty unyielding.

The Hajun thing has been elaborated on side material I haven't been able to get my hands on. But apparently, some certainly weird shenanigans took place right there. There's also the timeline where Hajun was not retconned out, and KKK happened.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:01 pm

I've only been involved this long to get better informed of this series which I'm clearly wasting my efforts in hoping to get. I and I'm sure you have better things to do with our time then this.


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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:06 pm

ChaosKnight75 wrote:I've only been involved this long to get better informed of this series which I'm clearly wasting me efforts in hoping to get. I and I'm sure you have better things to do with our time then this.

Pretty sure powerlevels are not a way to get informed about a series, I believe. But that's just me.

In fact, it's basically a fact that most people are somehow put off the higher the powerlevels go.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Zarathustra on Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:52 pm

trexalfa wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Chaos wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:Fine. Reader's Digest Version of a Magic God and posted in Facts and Feats: They affects concepts, infinitely Multiversal in terms of scope, transcend causality and freely control it, can create, destroy or manipulate all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower than 3 dimensional space and that included, and can't be challenged unless the character is proven to be at their level. I recall Hajun beating the Hadou Gods with a wave of his hand and universe going boom each time he speaks. Figured he'd stalemate the current Magic Gods. They get all the above but with the addition that they have to divide their infinite powers infinitely to be at just a level where the universe can contain them. Anything less and any universe is destroyed by their presence. That's why they reside in an infinitely infinite world (goes on forever and the slightest gaps go on for infinity) to where concepts like time and distance don't exist and the place itself is outside all existence as non-existance. Should be noted too that Crowley whose implied to be stronger than Othinus but weaker than the other Magic Gods managed to destroy that place despite its description during his rampage before he got his ass handed to him by High Priest. All that and more on my Respect thread

Honestly, i will go with what you saw for now(i will reread to aru magic god arcs carefully) and like i said before to aru is not writed in omniscient narrator so words are exageration, but that can stay for another time.



But even with those feats, strongest being that Magic Gods could possibly beat is Satanael  as long as they fight without throne supporting him because he is  only Universal+, and that because his weakness is him commiting any sort of Sin and when he do he is erased.


I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.


In the series all Hadou gods can destroy others without using attacks, just by existing, Hajun erased all hadou gods with exception of Tenma/Ren but it was said he could have destroyed Tenma whenever he wanted, but Tenma would never be a treat to Hajun.

The likes of Mercurius,Reinhard are all metaversal+, and even conceptual abilities isn't able to do nothing against Hadou Gods, their desires surpass all concepts and they exist on their own they are said to be walking "universes" the power of their desires surpasses everything, and they are able to inflict abilities on others as much as they want as long their desire is stronger than the other example: Ren used time manipulation to stop time against characters that are acasual, but because his power as Hadou God he is able to ignore all their resistance and existing outside of time/acasuality and make the effects of time stop work on them anyway.

Just to point out that Satanel isn't universal. He is very well multiversal. His World consisted of just one universe, but that's not indicative of his power, as his Law just wasn't the kind to create a multiverse (Snake's however, does). By virtue of being a Hadou God, Satanel's Taikyouku Value should be above Gudou Gods, who are very well multiversal (his Value is 80, by the way). Plus, Soujirou and Shiori (two Gudou Gods with Values around 60) were trashed by a badly Throne emulated copy of Satanel's Taikyouku.

.

Kinda, when someone is at Throne they have the size of Shinza at the size they want, at Satanael it was one universe with Snake and Hajun was a metaverse+ , the hadou gods though are affected by the one at the throne, but it can as well just means they are limited to the being that is with their desire above them and just limited to it.


You know what.


ToAru is not that bad, but it has  a subjective narrator at times, and extremely excessive amount of people talking about things that can lead to misunderstanding, but theres one phrase done by one of the Majin Gods.

"I need to infinitely divide my power to infinite to not break the world"

See where it gets subjective? World cannot be used as the same word for infinite multiversal, and its a majin god saying, so his statement rule over Ollerus and all other statements so far, feats? No, thats just fancy writing in the rest like i said, the author is not omniscient, he gets subjective, he doubts and and if you think Dies Irae is suggsverse-tier because of its powerlevel, its pretty stupid , not mind offending the fans. The series are pretty well written, chunni, yes a LOT, but its well done, the characters developments are extrememly good, the actions are consistent, the system of power is not flawed the characters are interesting, the universe construction is interesting plus the novel has few bad points.

Seeing more, all the majin gods respectively says they are only able to break the "world", where is limited to the universe, when theres controversy from the characters itself of how strong they are, you don't go with high-ends, but low-ends that is Universal, Low-multiversal or multiversal+ at best going with anything from the subjective and fancy way of writing everytime on high-end is what means to be wanking a series.
Just world?

Thor ruled a single world while Othinus created infinite worlds. That was an obvious and insurmountable wall.

But that was not the current problem.

Almighty Thor stood before Kamijou as a real threat and Othinus could no longer use her power. To move on, Kamijou would have to defeat him with the fists of a puny human.

“Just to be clear, I don’t designate the coordinates. For one thing, coordinates on paper are meaningless in an ever-expanding universe.”

The Index series has countless layers that make up everything. One layer is the universe the story takes place in, another layer is that infinite world of nothing that the other Majins reside in. Barring that one, she had control over all layers and could create or destroy as many as she wanted.

Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author. Not calling anything on Dies Irae at all really, though there is a lot about it I find questionable, but I'll wait until I can hear more than vague fan theories and untranslated nonsense which is all I really get up until now before I do.

This thread was going nowhere but south anyway.


No, thats not how it works, its not because theres a translation in english that means it is correct you know that too right?

ToAru "world" does not embody other layers, it just doesn't the world doesn't.

Also, you really can't grasp the idea that a series written in the third person is told by an omniscient narrator by default for the simple reason that said narrator being the author

I laughed, really, thats not how it works i ask you to read a bit about what being a narrator omniscient means, yes narrator can can have limited knowledge of events, omniscient and ToAru have a limited knowledge narrator, you can google if you want.

Thor is not even universal nor is carissa, is way of speaking they have nothing to backup that.

Also even if it was jedah Dohma or god emperor of mankind could easly solo this majin gods being universal or not, they have not resistance to mindfuck on that level, nor to soulfuck, and they cant deal with conceptual, mind you being in a dimension where time and space are meaningless can be done with just a high-level reality warping.


The Index series has countless layers that make up everything. One layer is the universe the story takes place in, another layer is that infinite world of nothing that the other Majins reside in. Barring that one, she had control over all layers and could create or destroy as many as she wanted.

Nope, its implied all the things, let me remind you another phrase

"The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about."

It explicit says a single universe, they are just above, but not really meaning they can do nothing in the scale you mentioned.

And no, you can't say that those layers are specific universes, or timelines, or whatever.

The majins gods stronger than Othinus themselves said in a singular that she "destroyed the world" , and world cannot make for infinite universes, also its like the author uses universe once and world in another time. Thats a flaw in the writing and it can't be take seriously in high-ends, its a bad writing and lead to misunderstanding, theres not a single person that read the original novel( in japanese) that believes in othinus or majin gods being multiversal, not one, not two, but entire group of VS forums , and well when i get to read something as subjective as ToAru, "World" and "universe" and those way that is translated can be considered obsolete its not much better than suggs writing, so i rather go with a low-end that makes they universal+ at best than trying to point out,subjective writing that can lead to a misunderstanding high-end.


-----------------Edit------------------------------------------------

You also can't claim that destroying all layers of existence in a 3-D scope below or above means that its destroying other universes, it can just mean you destroyed the universe as a whole not letting a single thing from its existence, and yeah theoricaly a universe have different layers but is just a single universe, and she can recreate this universe as much as she wants but she cannot affect infinite worlds in "worlds" meaning other universes, thats a misunderstanding of the writing in ToAru, its just bad to comprehend.

Its different you packing mercurius attack that literally says that he destroyed the whole shinza metaverse all concepts reduced it to nothingness.
All you had to do was ask.

"Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

That one layer happens to be the one where the Magic Gods reside in that's non-existent and quite huge in scope. Another layer is the reality where the series takes place in but your obviously ignoring the previous scan I posted. I love how the argument at this point is the author using actual words most people get over fan-terms like "metaverse" which I doubt Dies Irae used too.

Hell, the one you just used is saying World means something more then universe.

"The Earth, the universe, and the world were nothing"

And in the other Magic Gods' case, they had to to divide their powers infinitely, with each portion being just low enough to not destroy the universe with their presence and the only place they could otherwise be was an infinitely infinite world (even the slightest distances went on for infinity) of non-existance where concepts like time and space can't be applied and the place was effectively non-existent. And you got another feat from Crowley whose at least implied to be above Othinus destroying said place despite the description. Every quote I just said isn't merely universal.

Thor is not Universal? When there's a quote right there about what his ability does and his ability being based on Holism?

And Carissa, nope she can't destroy the universe per say, but her blade does allows her to cut through all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower then 3-Dimensions at once with her blade and the author no-less then 3 times explaining it as such.

1) She curtly swung down the sword.

In the next instant, Kamijou Touma saw a dimension being severed for the first time in his life.

Its range was a little less than 20 meters.

With a strange noise, something passed through along a line that Kamijou and Acqua had been on just a moment before. Something like a belt or a wall that was only about as wide as Curtana Original expanded. It was white and looked a little like a plastic model before it was colored. That object that looked not entirely complete appeared before Kamijou’s eyes.

“I could feel it when I was practicing before. This spiritual item is quite old, but its disposition seems to change a bit when someone wields it based on modern military knowledge. …Well, I’m sure my mother would be able to do something similar because she has the same nature.” A tone of enjoyment could be heard in Carissa’s voice. “Did you know that the cross section you get by slicing a 3 dimensional object is 2 dimensional? And slicing a 2 dimensional object creates a 1 dimensional cross section.”

With a clunk, the mysterious belt-shaped object that had been irrationally floating in the air fell to the ground right next to Kamijou.

It felt something like pottery, but it was actually extremely heavy despite how it looked. Even after it fell, it continued to sink into the black soil.

Similarly, when a dimension higher than our 3 dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a 3 dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this.”

2) “This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a 3 dimensional world.”

(What…?)

Kamijou was completely dumbfounded.

If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two.

Even so, Kamijou did not feel any fear. The scale was simply too great. Apparently the universe was constantly expanding due to the big bang, but no one could concretely feel the universe expanding with their 5 senses. Second Princess Carissa was using a power on that level.

“All Dimensions Severing Spell.”

3) Carissa held up her sword that could slice through not just a manmade nuclear shelter but the earth and the universe itself.

But please, continue the denial. This feat of Carissa's sword being able to cut all higher and lower dimensions then 3-D simultaneously and the consistently stated feat of teleportation involving going into the the 11th dimension and back is where Magic Gods get their dimensional feats since the author has said no less then twice now they overcome dimensions in a series where dimensions is referring to those higher spatial dimensions. Everything said you've ignored. Sure are resorting to denying a lot of evidence to keep yourself from believing what you want to hear.

My, my at attemping to use the lack of very specific feats to undermine a character so that the likes of Jedah Dohma or God Emperor of Mankind can beat them as a way to argue. By your argument, Misaki can mindrape them /:. Plenty of conceptual stuff I've already brought up, claiming to control concepts in itself as an argument is worthless. And the argument can simply be said that neither of them can't do a thing to mindrape opponents leagues beyond their level but hey, I'll play your game.

Magic Gods control the concept of causality and one has to transcend causality to not be affected by them recreating everything as stated by St. Germain on how it survived and backed up by the fact that Arisa (there's a concept right there, as she's the concept of miracles) who can affect causality to some extent to bring about outcomes that otherwise had no chance of happening (hence what a miracle is) was still among Othinus' victims. Haven't heard a thing about any the Nazis being above causality, so even Giorno Giovanna solos the verse if were really going there.

Just for info, about causality, yes they do. Any concept you can think of is a bitch to them. The concept of causality gets slashed apart by Soujirou, Shiori slams her fist into it, Yakou just drops a fucking meteor on it, Habaki, Rindou and Ryusuui also do their thing. And this is just the Gudou Gods, Suigin's Atziluth defies causality altogether (he is a living paradox, among other things) and they can just do the same the Gudou Gods do (Reinhard has like, a million ways of doing it thanks to his Legion).

Second, Dies Irae never uses metaverse, and I go with multiverse because the logic some people use to call it a metaverse seems flawed, at least to me anyway.

Third, why do you keep referencing Nazis? Do you know that, except from Reinhard (and discounting his Legion), none of them are Nazis, right?

Fourth, relying one ACF for info is bad, very bad. Because what Chaos posted above is their description of Disce Liebens, I believe. And until I get to that part myself, I'm not buying it.


The Dies Irae page for ACF is by far one of the most detailed pages I've seen on the topic. In fact, almost all of their pages are extremely detailed, and some of their pages can fill a small book.

You may disagree with what they say, but understand, out of any other VS site, ACF has the most detailed pages by far.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Zarathustra on Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:01 pm

Cosmic, there's no need to continue this flaming. You bashed an entire fanbase when one person disagreed with you.

If you disagree with him, there's no need to use insults, and there's certainly no need to bash the entire fanbase of the opposing team.
Also all of our resident Dies Irae experts (EMC, EG_Sage, and trexalfa) have never resorted to flaming and are quite knowledgeable and open-minded.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by onilink500 on Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:27 pm

mercurius kill all magic gods same ren or mephistoles

hajun bye multiverse kamachi(heavy odjec killer queen blood sing and others)

problem magic gods extrem speculative the power is universal ++ or multiversa(depend by in stores novel 9 the feats othinus is similar whitch by umineko= maria)in novel 13 similar case beyonders extrem power and idiot defeath extrem easy
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by EvilMegaCookie on Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:00 pm

A splendid necro. I applaud your efforts.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

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