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Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

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Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:57 pm

Yeah, I know there was a thread pretty similar to this deep down in this forum, but I'm not bumping it. Besides, I wanted to add new stuff to the thread, such as different scenarios. I've heard the Magic Gods are really uber (mostly through Othinus' feats).

This will be all the Magic Gods from To Aru in each scenario, put against.

Scenario 1: Gudou God team (without Hajun's boost).



Scenario 2: Hadou Gods at the end of Dies Irae, everyone at their peak (Snake is as always, Reinhard has awakened as Apoptosis, Ren is Yatou). Legion included.




Scenario 3: Hajun, with access to the Throne's record.



How does this go?
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:50 pm

Looks like bait. Nah just kidding Razz Alright, let's see a rundown of their abilities with translated scans if at all possible. Been hearing how Uber these Supernatural Nazis are and what not too
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:57 pm

What!? How could you think I was baiting you! (To be honest, I just wanted to knock some activity into the forums). I don't recommend using translated scans, because they use some shit tier translations (they look like run through Google Translate. Which doesn't mix too well with Masada's prose).

Anyway, everyone here can rape concepts for shits and giggles. Every single one, from the weakest featured Gudou God to Hajun himself, work on multiversal scales.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:03 pm

How did you read the series? Just post the scans that you got your info from. I'll take your word for it, but I still want to read it myself. As for me, stuck with a phone right now but I already posted just about everything that needs to be known in a Magic God respect thread in the Facts and Feats section of AnimeVice Boards. I recommend you join while your at it if you like this site enough. The community is ever growing and needs more members
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:13 pm

I'm reading the series in its original language. Unfortunately I'm currently on the same boat as you, cannot post quotes. Spoiling myself has guaranteed I know more than what I've currently read myself.

Anyway, any concept is subject to a god targetting it. For example, Soujirou Mibu, one of the Gudou Gods here, can slice concepts apart with his sword. His regular/casual slashes already tear universes apart, and can do some millions of them simultaneously.

The Hadou Gods are far more powerful. Ren's got his time stop and time armor, Reinhard's got his huge ass Legion of pseudo-gods as powerful as him (several hundreds of millions, he can boost the number to trillions by absorbing souls across the Already Known World).

Hajun can annihilate all this guys like flies.

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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:35 pm

Fine. Reader's Digest Version of a Magic God and posted in Facts and Feats: They affects concepts, infinitely Multiversal in terms of scope, transcend causality and freely control it, can create, destroy or manipulate all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower than 3 dimensional space and that included, and can't be challenged unless the character is proven to be at their level. I recall Hajun beating the Hadou Gods with a wave of his hand and universe going boom each time he speaks. Figured he'd stalemate the current Magic Gods. They get all the above but with the addition that they have to divide their infinite powers infinitely to be at just a level where the universe can contain them. Anything less and any universe is destroyed by their presence. That's why they reside in an infinitely infinite world (goes on forever and the slightest gaps go on for infinity) to where concepts like time and distance don't exist and the place itself is outside all existence as non-existance. Should be noted too that Crowley whose implied to be stronger than Othinus but weaker than the other Magic Gods managed to destroy that place despite its description during his rampage before he got his ass handed to him by High Priest. All that and more on my Respect thread
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:48 pm

Well, now I realized something. Soujirou did perform a sword slash that could have shattered all of creation, which is an infinite multiverse, if Hajun hadn't been the one occupying the Throne. Now let's look at his Taikyouku Value (way to look at the strength of his Law). It's 60 IIRC. Both Snake/Mercurius and Reinhard have Values of 90, and Yatou's is 100. While Hajun's is completely out of the scale.

So yeah, powerscale from there.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:54 pm

Just did. Still sticking with the outcome for now. Can't scale with Taikyou levels since whoever has the higher wins regardless of abilities or feats or something like that from what I read and hear from fans.


Last edited by ChaosKnight75 on Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:05 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : B)
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Azathoth on Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:23 am

From what I've heard Kami-Sama gods are much more impressive.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:53 am

ChaosKnight75 wrote:Just did. Still sticking with the outcome for now. Can't scale with Taikyou levels since whoever has the higher wins regardless of abilities or feats or something like that from what I read and hear from fans.

And why do you think they always win? Because the Value represents the strength of their Laws. Shinza characters, for debate purposes, can be scaled using their Taikyouku Value, because whoever has a bigger one is stronger. Ougon is definately more powerful than Soujirou because he has a higher Value.

The problem starts when you start scaling outside of the series, because Taikyouku Value is completely unquantifiable. But do you prefer to scale them within their own series, or go for the No limits fallacy-like approach of "the Gods are capable of any feat regardless of its scale"?
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:25 am

Sleep Nah if we do the latter it goes both ways. Tell you what, I want to read the series myself since this is already turning out like I imagined can you tell me where you read it from? For now at least, you can answer this to me. How much do you think Hajun can destroy and show some feats with it. What goes beyond infinitely Multiversal I mean.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:34 am

ChaosKnight75 wrote:Nah if we do the latter it goes both ways. Tell you what, I want to read the series myself since this is already turning out like I imagined can you tell me where you read it from? For now at least, you can answer this to me. How much do you think Hajun can destroy and show some feats with it.


Hey, don't act like I'm taking sides here. I'm just offering information on the side you don't know too much above. I feel the OP shouldn't take sides in his own thread.

Go and download Dies Irae, KKK and Paradise Lost, have a dictionary on hand to solve vocabulary doubts, and start reading. That's the only way to read the full novels outside of excerpts which are too far disconnected. I'm not even finished with Dies Irae, and it's taking a while, but it sure is worth it.

I'm on my tablet right know, so getting a hold of quotes is impossible right now. But Hajun is heads and leaps above everyone here, his Tengu Dou Law is based on annihilating anything other than himself, including concepts. He annihilated Tasogare, Beast and Snake. He is multiversal+ at bare minimum. Massively so.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:41 am

Thanks for the titles but where can I download the full series? And if Hajun is that much then it looks like he stalemates any of them but the rest get beat if Hajun can swat them like flies.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Azathoth on Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:36 pm

Isn't Mercurius alone massively multiversal (and even able to affect other multiverses)?
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:43 pm

Azathoth wrote:Isn't Mercurius alone massively multiversal (and even able to affect other multiverses)?
Yes, yes he is. One of his attacks, Omnia Fert Aetas, makes collections of universes crash into each other, erasing both from existence. He is equal to Ougon, and below Yatou and Hajun.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Lordlloyd7 on Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:02 pm

How is this even a comparison? Kami sama>To Aru entirely.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by MeruemSama on Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:17 pm

Well i see the High Priest beating fodder hadou gods but not at Reinhard lvl.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Lordlloyd7 on Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:17 pm

Or anyone in LDO.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by trexalfa on Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:15 am

MeruemSama wrote:Well i see the High Priest beating fodder hadou gods but not at Reinhard lvl.
Fodder Hadou Gods? Such a thing doesn't exist. Hadou Gods have Taikyouku Values above Gudou Gods by default, and those can already wreck all of creation without getting boosted.Furthermore, this match includes the three strongest ones, plus Hajun, nor even weaker ones like first three Heavens.

@Lordlloyd

I just want to see how they compared. And no, LDO members without getting boosted by either Ren's or Reinhard's Atziluth are not touching this people.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Chaos on Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:13 am

ChaosKnight75 wrote:Fine. Reader's Digest Version of a Magic God and posted in Facts and Feats: They affects concepts, infinitely Multiversal in terms of scope, transcend causality and freely control it, can create, destroy or manipulate all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower than 3 dimensional space and that included, and can't be challenged unless the character is proven to be at their level. I recall Hajun beating the Hadou Gods with a wave of his hand and universe going boom each time he speaks. Figured he'd stalemate the current Magic Gods. They get all the above but with the addition that they have to divide their infinite powers infinitely to be at just a level where the universe can contain them. Anything less and any universe is destroyed by their presence. That's why they reside in an infinitely infinite world (goes on forever and the slightest gaps go on for infinity) to where concepts like time and distance don't exist and the place itself is outside all existence as non-existance. Should be noted too that Crowley whose implied to be stronger than Othinus but weaker than the other Magic Gods managed to destroy that place despite its description during his rampage before he got his ass handed to him by High Priest. All that and more on my Respect thread

Honestly, i will go with what you saw for now(i will reread to aru magic god arcs carefully) and like i said before to aru is not writed in omniscient narrator so words are exageration, but that can stay for another time.



But even with those feats, strongest being that Magic Gods could possibly beat is Satanael  as long as they fight without throne supporting him because he is only Universal+, and that because his weakness is him commiting any sort of Sin and when he do he is erased.


I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.


In the series all Hadou gods can destroy others without using attacks, just by existing, Hajun erased all hadou gods with exception of Tenma/Ren but it was said he could have destroyed Tenma whenever he wanted, but Tenma would never be a treat to Hajun.

The likes of Mercurius,Reinhard are all metaversal+, and even conceptual abilities isn't able to do nothing against Hadou Gods, their desires surpass all concepts and they exist on their own they are said to be walking "universes" the power of their desires surpasses everything, and they are able to inflict abilities on others as much as they want as long their desire is stronger than the other example: Ren used time manipulation to stop time against characters that are acasual, but because his power as Hadou God he is able to ignore all their resistance and existing outside of time/acasuality and make the effects of time stop work on them anyway.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:38 am

Chaos wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:Fine. Reader's Digest Version of a Magic God and posted in Facts and Feats: They affects concepts, infinitely Multiversal in terms of scope, transcend causality and freely control it, can create, destroy or manipulate all spatial dimensions be they higher or lower than 3 dimensional space and that included, and can't be challenged unless the character is proven to be at their level. I recall Hajun beating the Hadou Gods with a wave of his hand and universe going boom each time he speaks. Figured he'd stalemate the current Magic Gods. They get all the above but with the addition that they have to divide their infinite powers infinitely to be at just a level where the universe can contain them. Anything less and any universe is destroyed by their presence. That's why they reside in an infinitely infinite world (goes on forever and the slightest gaps go on for infinity) to where concepts like time and distance don't exist and the place itself is outside all existence as non-existance. Should be noted too that Crowley whose implied to be stronger than Othinus but weaker than the other Magic Gods managed to destroy that place despite its description during his rampage before he got his ass handed to him by High Priest. All that and more on my Respect thread

Honestly, i will go with what you saw for now(i will reread to aru magic god arcs carefully) and like i said before to aru is not writed in omniscient narrator so words are exageration, but that can stay for another time.



But even with those feats, strongest being that Magic Gods could possibly beat is Satanael  as long as they fight without throne supporting him because he is  only Universal+, and that because his weakness is him commiting any sort of Sin and when he do he is erased.


I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.


In the series all Hadou gods can destroy others without using attacks, just by existing, Hajun erased all hadou gods with exception of Tenma/Ren but it was said he could have destroyed Tenma whenever he wanted, but Tenma would never be a treat to Hajun.

The likes of Mercurius,Reinhard are all metaversal+, and even conceptual abilities isn't able to do nothing against Hadou Gods, their desires surpass all concepts and they exist on their own they are said to be walking "universes" the power of their desires surpasses everything, and they are able to inflict abilities on others as much as they want as long their desire is stronger than the other example: Ren used time manipulation to stop time against characters that are acasual, but because his power as Hadou God he is able to ignore all their resistance and existing outside of time/acasuality and make the effects of time stop work on them anyway.
Already got a respect thread made on AnimeVice in the Facts and Feats section.

http://animevice.boards.net/thread/655/magic-gods-cometh

Also Metaversal alone really doesnt mean much. For starters, it overlaps with and can mean the same thing as Multiverse, and if your implying higher dimensions then our 4-D universe, then sure I can get you. I found scans of Mercurius with his power encompassing an Extra-Dimensional Universe (Multiverse). Other things like cannot die is fine since the same thing applies to Magic Gods against anything not at their level, even with their powers divided infinitely. Controlling concepts is cool and all. Magic Gods do so too as well as causality. Now the real question is how Metaversal? Magic Gods, as my thread will show, surpass and manipulate all/any spatial dimensions.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Mudamuda on Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:32 pm

Chaos wrote:

I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.

Habiki had 検証不可能 in the middle of his stats, when he was fighting yatou, which is exactly the same as hajun. That's why he managed to break through Yatou's law.

If there's anyone who got more boost than any character in the series, it's him. bounce

Hadou gods get stronger if they have more souls, Yatou surpassed all hadou gods combined (except hajun) with a single soul; his own.

Hadou gods can consume souls as MP points, Yatou had 1 MP. In the final fight a weakened Hajun was throwing out souls to deal with the problem, souls that could have been used to empower Yatou some more.

Usual Hadou gods = law strength + souls

Yatou = Law strengnth + no soul other than his own >>>>>>> Every other god except hajun


---------------------------------- reply to thread ----------------------------------

/jp/ bro here. I don't see how dividing your " power infinitely " is even relevant when it's quite unquantifiable and nothing more than a fancy way of saying "making ourselves sufficiently weaker".

And shit how many times can you put infinite in a respect thread it feels like reading suggs somehow became the writer of Jew Aru.

And now it has gods purposely weakening themselves for plots sakes! So that touman can punch them in their face with his IB. How dumb can the plot get, for all their *pfffft* infinite power they can't seem to create an avatar to deal with the problem.

Hadou gods can easily do this via sensory creation. Gudou like Soujiro are self-contained, they wouldn't even destroy the universe even if they're spamming universe busting attacks; even the grass on the ground won't be rustled as long as the universe isn't the target of his attacks.

Why is Yatou even here for? Sukuna's 無間身洋受苦処地獄 - Malignant Tumor Apoptosis in Dies Irae is more than enough to deal with anyone that got in his way.
It's pretty nasty as it can crush supernatural abilities and taikyokus alike until you're reduced to a regular powerless human being instantly. There was that instance where it crushed Keishirou's taikyoku instantly. Not to mention it can create an apoptosis that's equally as powerful as the target. Which can not be killed until the target is dead or the target kills itself.

We have IB on crack..

And where did the feat of controlling infinite dimensions come from? The statements "controlling higher and lower dimensions" and what's the quantitative context of "Magic gods higher than all dimensions?"

Because it's all is pretty vague and should be thrown out the unquantifiable bin. Shit how do you(the guy who made the respect thread) make a conclusion that "all dimensions" somehow means infinite dimensions when his cites isn't even close what the fuck he's talking about. So statement like "Higher than all dimensions dimensions" needs more context dependent.

I mean the highest stated number is 3 spacial dimensions or 4-D if you count time. So we start from there, unless there's another numbered-dimension mentioned elsewhere.

If we're using dimensions to quantify who has a bigger multiverse.
We have a statement about magic gods in his own respect thread:

"the earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about."
(Unrealistic ideals don’t matter. What exactly are you supposed to do against a monster like that!?)
"

A multiverse with infinite universes is 5-D hyper (insert shape) consisting an infinite number 4-D cross-section, each cross-section is a 4D (3-spacial + 1 time) universe. Which fits because a magic god is like a cactus beside a single a single universe according to the statement.

If the magic god is higher that 5-D space he wouldn't even perceive a single universe at all, A 6-D would perceive an in infinite sets of 5-D cross-section side by side, each 5-D cross-section can be infinitely divided into 4-D cross-section.

If a Magic god is an entity of the 7th dimension were to draw a graph of a function that's equivalent to (y=x^2) in the 7th dimension, each dot of the function is a 5-D cross-section; a multiverse containing with 4-D universe (3-spacial dimensions + 1 time).

Go up to the seventh, it's the same process.

It would take more firepower/meta or otherwise to rustle Yakou's 24+ dimensional space jimmies. (22-D Chousins eat your heart out!). Because 24th dimensional being would 22-D entity as a single point and 23-D entity in would be analogous to how we perceive 2d objects.

Just so you know Yakou's taikyoku is 10 which is really really insignificant bug compared to Hadou gods.

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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:13 pm

Mudamuda wrote:
Chaos wrote:

I dont remember any Godou God in KKK  that are  going to lose this either even Habaki without Hajun boost fought Tenma, and despite having being butchered all the time his desire is to "never die" "i don't want to die" and tenma was unable to put him down(but thats likely because he is linked to Hajun) and later defeated Tenma with a powerboost from Hajun.

Habiki had 検証不可能 in the middle of his stats, when he was fighting yatou, which is exactly the same as hajun. That's why he managed to break through Yatou's law.

If there's anyone who got more boost than any character in the series, it's him. bounce

Hadou gods get stronger if they have more souls, Yatou surpassed all hadou gods combined (except hajun) with a single soul; his own.

Hadou gods can consume souls as MP points, Yatou had 1 MP. In the final fight a weakened Hajun was throwing out souls to deal with the problem, souls that could have been used to empower Yatou some more.



---------------------------------- reply to thread ----------------------------------

/jp/ bro here. I don't see how dividing your " power infinitely " is even relevant when it's quite unquantifiable and nothing more than a fancy way of saying "making ourselves sufficiently weaker".

And shit how many times can you put infinite in a respect thread it feels like reading suggs somehow became the writer of Jew Aru.

And now it has gods purposely weakening themselves for plots sakes! So that touman can punch them in their face with his IB. How dumb can the plot get, for all their *pfffft* infinite power they can't seem to create an avatar to deal with the problem.

Hadou gods can easily do this via sensory creation. Gudou like Soujiro are self-contained, they wouldn't even destroy the universe even if they're spamming universe busting attacks; even the grass on the ground won't be rustled as long as the universe isn't the target of his attacks.

Why is Yatou even here for? Sukuna's 無間身洋受苦処地獄 - Malignant Tumor Apoptosis in Dies Irae is more than enough to deal with anyone that got in his way.
It's pretty nasty as it can crush supernatural abilities and taikyoku alike until you're reduced to a regular powerless human being instantly. There was that instance where it crushed Keishirou's taikyoku instantly.

And where did the feat of controlling infinite dimensions come from? The statements "controlling higher and lower dimensions" and what's the quantitative context of "Magic gods higher than all dimensions?"

Because it's all is pretty vague and should be thrown out the unquantifiable bin. Shit how do you(the guy who made the respect thread) make a conclusion that "all dimensions" somehow means infinite dimensions when his cites isn't even close what the fuck he's talking about. So statement like "Higher than all dimensions dimensions" needs more context dependent.

I mean the highest stated number is 3 spacial dimensions or 4-D if you count time. So we start from there, unless there's another numbered-dimension mentioned elsewhere.

If we're using dimensions to quantify who has a bigger multiverse.
We have a statement about magic gods in his own respect thread:

"the earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about."
(Unrealistic ideals don’t matter. What exactly are you supposed to do against a monster like that!?)
"

A multiverse with infinite universes is 5-D hyper (insert shape) consisting an infinite number 4-D cross-section, each cross-section is a 4D (3-spacial + 1 time) universe. Which fits because a magic god is like a cactus beside a single a single universe according to the statement.

If the magic god is higher that 5-D space he wouldn't even perceive a single universe at all, A 6-D would perceive an in infinite sets of 5-D cross-section side by side, each 5-D cross-section can be infinitely divided into 4-D cross-section.

If a Magic god is an entity of the 7th dimension were to draw a graph of a function that's equivalent to (y=x^2) in the 7th dimension, each dot of the function is a 5-D cross-section; a multiverse containing with 4-D universe (3-spacial dimensions + 1 time).

Go up to the seventh, it's the same process.

It would take more firepower/meta or otherwise to rustle Yakou's 24+ dimensional space jimmies. (22-D Chousins eat your heart out!). Because 24th dimensional being would 22-D entity as a single point and 23-D entity in would be analogous to how we perceive 2d objects.

Just so you know Yakou's taikyoku is 10 which is really really insignificant bug compared to Hadou gods.
Boy, some Dies Irae fans I have the pleasure of knowing just can't hide how pissy they get when defending their verse. I posted scans that show there's higher dimensions, a blade that severs all of them (way above 4 or 5D, it cuts all of them be they higher or lower, and then the Magic Gods description of them controlling and manipulating every dimension and the newest one saying they overcome them. All is exactly what it means, all of them regardless of the number. No need to overthink it any harder and work yourself up, my friend.

Dividing their powers infinitely does have some backbone to it when each divided bit of their powers is just low enough for the universe to not get destroyed by their presence. Then your whining and complaining about the series, it's story or Touma always winning all his fights (false, big time) which I don't see has any purpose in a debate. Especially since Dies Irae isn't too promising in story itself. Jew Aru, was that supposed to be your big witty remark? I'll be embarrassed if that's all you got. I wouldn't be pointing fingers about saying the Index series is anything like Suggs writing. You got folks thinking Dies Irae is basically Suggsverse just with a Nazi-fetish weirdness added into the mix. And fans that so viciously worship what's essentially untranslated nonsense to the extent that you do isn't doing your beloved series any favors Wink


Last edited by ChaosKnight75 on Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:31 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:23 pm

Hell, every/all dimensions sounds more impressive then infinite in my book. Anyway, forget about comparing Yatou to Imagine Breaker and the rest of the Nazis to the Magic Gods. Carissa splits the entire verse with a gesture.
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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

Post by Mudamuda on Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:16 pm

ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Boy, some Dies Irae fans I have the misfortune of knowing just can't hide how pissy they get when defending their verse. I posted scans that show there's higher dimensions, a blade that severs all of them (way above 4 or 5D, it cuts all of them be they higher or lower, and then the Magic Gods description of them controlling and manipulating every dimension and the newest one saying they overcome them. All is exactly what it means, all of them regardless of the number. No need to overthink it any harder and work yourself up, my friend. Dividing their powers infinitely does have some backbone to it when each divided bit of their powers is just low enough for the universe to not get destroyed by their presence. Then you whining and complaining about the series story or Touma always winning all his fights (false, big time) which I don't see has any purpose in a debate. Especially since Dies Irae isn't too promising in story itself. Jew Aru, was that supposed to be your big witty remark? I'll be embarrassed if that's all you got. I wouldn't be pointing fingers about saying the Index series is anything like Suggs writing. You got folks thinking Dies Irae is basically Suggsverse just with a Nazi-fetish weirdness added into the mix. And fans that so viciously worship what's essentially untranslated nonsense to the extent that you do isn't doing it any favors Wink

To be specific you didn't post a scan, you posted a respect thread and expected people to find the cite that's supposed to prove your point. You might as well starts blaring binary in Lingua-technis at me.

"All dimensions" doesn't state nor imply infinity at all as there's not a single statement directly stating that they're "infinite". We have infinite worlds -> Multiverse(s) but not infinite dimensions.

All it does prove is there is a number of arbitrary dimensions above the 4th dimensions inside Index, how much more above it? We don't know and to assume infinity on a basis of a very vague and very unquantifiable statement is pretty presumptuous especially without a direct statement is a standard no limits fallacy. It could even fit as Reductio ad absurdum.


There is a vast gap between speculations within a certain logical framework, and scenes that are unquantifiable. I means look at this statement: “That means you don’t need control over every phase, every dimension, and every element to manipulate everything around you. A magician with control over carbon and nothing else can pull that one off.”
How did you quantify this controlling infinite dimensions, all the text doing is making an analogy that in order to everything around, you don’t need to control everything just carbon. You can’t even dissect this statement and to get an implicit feat.
Let’s discent this even further
This is basically what you’re claiming happening

Person A: “…That means you don’t need control over every phase, every dimension, and every element to manipulate everything around you. A magician with control over carbon and nothing else can pull that one off...”

Claim: “Persona A must have been able to do all those things! He can control the world around him!”

But the statement has nothing to do with persona A being able to do all those things, the statement is about controlling carbon.

The respect thread is claiming “Magic Gods also control and manipulate all higher and lower spacial dimensions. Other examples of beings who affect these higher spatial dimensions that surpass our 3 Dimensional world to a more limited extent include Kuroko and Carissa. Magic Gods control and transcend all spatial dimensions via residing outside all possible existance.”

And somehow the supporting materials is at odds with each other

Text before and after the cited materia:
“Please wait!! He…he really did bend the entire world before my eyes! It was like…like this… It’s hard to explain, but the walls, floor, and ceiling all turned into weapons, tunnels appeared in the people in the way, and they all attacked me at once!”
“Have you forgotten?” Othinus sounded almost utterly exasperated. “This is the Dianoid. The entire building is made of carbon materials. That means you don’t need control over every phase, every dimension, and every element to manipulate everything around you. A magician with control over carbon and nothing else can pull that one off.”
“…”
“There are two primary legends about St. Germain. The first is how he conquered aging whether by immortality or time travel. His predictions of the future and knowledge of great secrets are derived from the time travel. The second is his ability to control jewels and restore scratched diamonds. Doesn’t that seem to fit with the clichéd situation we have now?”
Diamonds were carbon.
The building was made of carbon.
The human body was organic matter and thus also made of carbon.
What did that mean?
“But…he knew.”
“Knew what?”
-------------------------------------
Another one. Reposting.
“The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about. (Unrealistic ideals don’t matter. What exactly are you supposed to do against a monster like that!?) It was absolute overkill. It went far beyond an overflow error.”

A multiverse with infinite universes is 5-D hyper (insert shape) consisting an infinite number 4-D cross-section, each cross-section is a 4D (3-spacial + 1 time) universe. Which fits the stand model of universe because a magic god is like a cactus beside a single a single universe according to the statement.

If the magic god is higher that 5-D space he wouldn't even perceive a single universe at all, A 6-D would perceive an in infinite sets of 5-D cross-section side by side, each 5-D cross-section can be infinitely divided into 4-D cross-section.

If a Magic god is an entity of the 7th dimension were to draw a graph of a function that's equivalent to (y=x^2) in the 7th dimension, you’d get a line of that function that represents 5-D cross-sections; each a multiverse containing with 4-D universe (3-spacial dimensions + 1 time).

The statement also gives us some context on how the magic gods operate outside the universe such as:
-Bigger than the universe
-Can destroy a universe or multiple universe by “toppling over”. Which is possible within a 5th-dimensional framework. As there’s an array of universes ‘slices/cross-sections’ that composes the 5-D medium that it’s part of.
-Can go to lower dimensions.

It's not over thinking, it's called analyzing the source material. All you’re doing is invoking The Analysis Paralysis fallacy, so why would I stop analyzing the text give counter-premise to your assertion that there’s no such thing as infinite dimensions?

We have the data and we have descriptions of kind of properties spacial dimensions in one of the cites in respect thread, then there's no reason to stop the analyzing. Unless Index has a different definition compared how dimensions work or have different properties, that would be problem, the good thing is that the text used properties of special dimensions than we can quantify.

I know this is a VS but the attitudes in VS forums are so aggressive as to make it less a debating room and more of a gladiatorial shouting matches of NO YOU!, where people will stick to their guns no matter what, refusing to think and call it overthinking, make an attempt of even a small smidgen of analysis and brick wall tactics and brute force ignorance are the main driving forces.

At the end of the day nobody is really proving anything anymore, and the standard of VS debate is slipping to no end.

What I'm trying to do here is show that everyone is capable of a reasonable, evidence-based and polite debate where actual conclusions are reached (even if the actual conclusion ends up being "we don't know.").

This is supposed to be a new forums so let’s try changing the perception that a VS debate has to be a tooth and nail fight to the death.



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Re: Magic Gods (To Aru) vs Gods (Shinza/Kami Sama)

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