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John Constantine Vs Beatrice The endless witch

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Re: John Constantine Vs Beatrice The endless witch

Post by Othus on Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:49 pm

Chef_Banchou wrote:
Naruto Uzumaki wrote:John wins.
*waits*

How? His only chance of victory is tricking her into surrender. Other than that, Beatrice has his number in any other scenario.

he wont be answering that question at all.
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Re: John Constantine Vs Beatrice The endless witch

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:52 pm

Othus wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
Naruto Uzumaki wrote:John wins.
*waits*

How? His only chance of victory is tricking her into surrender. Other than that, Beatrice has his number in any other scenario.

he wont be answering that question at all.

Yeah, I know. I did't realize he had been banned, until after I made that post, lol.
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Re: John Constantine Vs Beatrice The endless witch

Post by EG_Sage on Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:19 pm

Beato has Golden Truth but never used it on Battler cause she was going easy on him,remember she was also the Game Master.
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Re: John Constantine Vs Beatrice The endless witch

Post by Kurohige on Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:51 am

Chef_Banchou wrote:
I'm well aware of how John does things. Using nothing but trickery, bluffs, and subtle suggestion, he has fooled greater demons into falling for his schemes, hook line and sinker. Just like the time he pretended to predict hell's stock markets would crash, making the demon lord of business (thats nkt a joke, he really was the 1# business man of hell) become paranoid and unnerved. John ended up being right, causing the demon to kill his own minions in frustration, and leave Liverpool, threatening to make John's soul into a button for his waist coat, lol.

But, I digress. I'm a huge fan of John, and while I do think that he has the intellectual advantage here, he's still not in for an.easy time. I still think he could only win via tricking her into surrender/retreat. The reason why I don't see him convincing Beatrice of Battler's death, is because Battler's sister, Ange; the Golden Witch of Resurrection. She can, and has, revived people on a whim. Beatrice would simply shrug off any such claims and assume that Battler would be attended to by Ange.
Well of course it wont be easy and of course his only way to win is trickery, I never suggested he'd win using any magic, hell, there are some spellcasters in DC  like Zatanna and Doctor Fate that rival him so he isn't unique in that regard. However I do think that he could convince her into suicide, he does have knowledge here, the advantage from John's persuasion is that the victim doesn't usually have time to dwell on it or think up something logical to counter what he said, so while Beatrice may think about the possibility that Battler can simply be brought back, if she is convinced that he is killed or worse, that his death was somehow caused by her or something like that, then in the heat of the moment she may take her life. He could also play the psychological games and use her own past acts of sadism and disregard for life against her, I mean if hell spawn who live in the land of torture are susceptible to this I dunno why she can't be. I mean the guy fooled a divine being into thinking the universe was gone, tricking a damaged, albeit genius woman into thinking someone is dead and that taking her life will be penance or whatever he wants her to think should not be out of the possibilities.  And basic manipulation almost had Battler accomplish her goal and forever acknowledge her existence, and in tunr Battler beat her simply explaining her last scenario.

He can also convince her that Battler simply left Rokkujima without her then her whole life mission would kinda go in smoke.

EG_Sage wrote:Beato has Golden Truth but never used it on Battler cause she was going easy on him,remember she was also the Game Master.
If this was a bloodlusted fight then sure, she would just say:

Beatrice: "You will perish if you say one more word!"

John: *Lights cigarette*  "Tosser-"  *Gets erased from existence as Beatrice laughs sadistically and then goes to the garden for some tea.*

Lol I'm not suggesting John just up and challenge her to a showdown, hell much weaker magicians would erase john as well, with knowledge John will know about Golden Truth and know how to approach her, he is likely the most subtle character is comics, he wouldn't easily provoke her into using Golden Truth just like that. He is a con man for a reason, the guy would successfully sell the Brooklyn Bridge to someone before there was a Brooklyn, that's what he does. He isn't even gonna attempt to play Beatrice's game or enter a debate with her. Also, wouldn't that be overkill? Wouldn't she reasonably just, I dunno, cast a random spell and blow him up? She is universal+ after all.

I know Beatrice's whole thing is doing the impossible, solving the mystery in the Higarashi-verse, escaping an infinite loop ect. But John isn't fighting using riddles, magic, or BFR, he is using simple conversation.
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Re: John Constantine Vs Beatrice The endless witch

Post by Chef_Banchou on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:20 am

Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
I'm well aware of how John does things. Using nothing but trickery, bluffs, and subtle suggestion, he has fooled greater demons into falling for his schemes, hook line and sinker. Just like the time he pretended to predict hell's stock markets would crash, making the demon lord of business (thats nkt a joke, he really was the 1# business man of hell) become paranoid and unnerved. John ended up being right, causing the demon to kill his own minions in frustration, and leave Liverpool, threatening to make John's soul into a button for his waist coat, lol.

But, I digress. I'm a huge fan of John, and while I do think that he has the intellectual advantage here, he's still not in for an.easy time. I still think he could only win via tricking her into surrender/retreat. The reason why I don't see him convincing Beatrice of Battler's death, is because Battler's sister, Ange; the Golden Witch of Resurrection. She can, and has, revived people on a whim. Beatrice would simply shrug off any such claims and assume that Battler would be attended to by Ange.
Well of course it wont be easy and of course his only way to win is trickery, I never suggested he'd win using any magic, hell, there are some spellcasters in DC  like Zatanna and Doctor Fate that rival him so he isn't unique in that regard. However I do think that he could convince her into suicide, he does have knowledge here, the advantage from John's persuasion is that the victim doesn't usually have time to dwell on it or think up something logical to counter what he said, so while Beatrice may think about the possibility that Battler can simply be brought back, if she is convinced that he is killed or worse, that his death was somehow caused by her or something like that, then in the heat of the moment she may take her life. He could also play the psychological games and use her own past acts of sadism and disregard for life against her, I mean if hell spawn who live in the land of torture are susceptible to this I dunno why she can't be. I mean the guy fooled a divine being into thinking the universe was gone, tricking a damaged, albeit genius woman into thinking someone is dead and that taking her life will be penance or whatever he wants her to think should not be out of the possibilities.  And basic manipulation almost had Battler accomplish her goal and forever acknowledge her existence, and in tunr Battler beat her simply explaining her last scenario.

He can also convince her that Battler simply left Rokkujima without her then her whole life mission would kinda go in smoke.

EG_Sage wrote:Beato has Golden Truth but never used it on Battler cause she was going easy on him,remember she was also the Game Master.
If this was a bloodlusted fight then sure, she would just say:

Beatrice:  "You will perish if you say one more word!"

John: *Lights cigarette*  "Tosser-"  *Gets erased from existence as Beatrice laughs sadistically and then goes to the garden for some tea.*

Lol I'm not suggesting John just up and challenge her to a showdown, hell much weaker magicians would erase john as well, with knowledge John will know about Golden Truth and know how to approach her, he is likely the most subtle character is comics, he wouldn't easily provoke her into using Golden Truth just like that. He is a con man for a reason, the guy would successfully sell the Brooklyn Bridge to someone before there was a Brooklyn, that's what he does. He isn't even gonna attempt to play Beatrice's game or enter a debate with her. Also, wouldn't that be overkill? Wouldn't she reasonably just, I dunno, cast a random spell and blow him up? She is universal+ after all.

I know Beatrice's whole thing is doing the impossible, solving the mystery in the Higarashi-verse, escaping an infinite loop ect. But John isn't fighting using riddles, magic, or BFR, he is using simple conversation.

Well, you've made some very good points...I suppose it could be possible that he could convince her to commit suicide...but there are 2 things keeping me from completely vouching from John's victory.

First, there's still the matter of Ange. Even if John manages to convince Beato to take her own life, Ange will just bring her back. Although, I suppose this point would be moot, seeing as John would already have claimed victory, anyway, the moment she died.

Second, however, is the big issue; if they both have knowledge of one another, wouldn't Beatrice be aware of John's capabilities? She's quite resourceful, and knows when to be serious, if the situation is dire enough. Beato is arrogant and unstable, but she won't take her opponent lightly or brush John's reputation off. If she is aware of how he works, she uas a chance to turn the tables on him. After all, John is not completely stable, himself. He has his inner demons and regrets, as well.
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Re: John Constantine Vs Beatrice The endless witch

Post by Kurohige on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:58 am

Ah sheet, I forgot knowledge goes both ways! Yeah if that's the case then Beatrice should expect that and know he is effectively a compulsive liar so yeah I agree that suicide is out. I can still see him making her retreat since that wouldn't necessarily require lying but more of persuasion. With knowledge if she even thinks he is lying she may just kill him there for wasting her time, hell she might even just pretend to buy into it and then BAM, con the con-man, i'd imagine she would get pleasure in that XD on the flip side even if she dind't have knowledge she may go crazy from thinking battler is dead or left her and kill him out of rage, then MAYBE kill herself in greif but it wouldn't end well for John anyway.

As for your first point, yeah, that should be available, I mean if I said John can summon Swamp thing to help him fight I dunno why Beatrice couldn't have Ange bring her back. That would be really one-sided of me. Even though Swamp Thing wouldn't him at all in this scenario :p

Okay, I think John could SURVIVE an encounter with Beatrice, but he is only winning metaphorically, he isn't winning by any sort of death or removal of Beatrice but rather in a sense that he can go to a bar and has a few drinks and a smoke and brag about encountering such a woman. Although, I guess if she wanted to Beatrice could find and kill John after the encounter once she finds out he lied if she was really that bitter about it, depending on what John told her to make he retreat. Still, I must ask, is it possible it can end in sex? Or is Battler the only man for her? Could John persuade her into doing that? It sounds super perverted I know but that could be impressive in it's own right. afro
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Re: John Constantine Vs Beatrice The endless witch

Post by Chef_Banchou on Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:08 pm

Kurohige wrote:Ah sheet, I forgot knowledge goes both ways! Yeah if that's the case then Beatrice should expect that and know he is effectively a compulsive liar so yeah I agree that suicide is out. I can still see him making her retreat since that wouldn't necessarily require lying but more of persuasion. With knowledge if she even thinks he is lying she may just kill him there for wasting her time, hell she might even just pretend to buy into it and then BAM, con the con-man, i'd imagine she would get pleasure in that XD on the flip side even if she dind't have knowledge she may go crazy from thinking battler is dead or left her and kill him out of rage, then MAYBE kill herself in greif but it wouldn't end well for John anyway.

As for your first point, yeah, that should be available, I mean if I said John can summon Swamp thing to help him fight I dunno why Beatrice couldn't have Ange bring her back. That would be really one-sided of me. Even though Swamp Thing wouldn't him at all in this scenario :p

Okay, I think John could SURVIVE an encounter with Beatrice, but he is only winning metaphorically, he isn't winning by any sort of death or removal of Beatrice but rather in a sense that he can go to a bar and has a few drinks and a smoke and brag about encountering such a woman. Although, I guess if she wanted to Beatrice could find and kill John after the encounter once she finds out he lied if she was really that bitter about it, depending on what John told her to make he retreat. Still, I must ask, is it possible it can end in sex? Or is Battler the only man for her? Could John persuade her into doing that? It sounds super perverted I know but that could be impressive in it's own right. afro

Oh yeah, John could definetly at least survive an encounter with Beatrice, I just had a hard time imagining a scenario with John causing her death, without not causing his own in the process, lol.

I'd be willing to bet that John could do something, or say something, to impress Beato enough to convince her that he either isn't worth killing in any scenario, or that he is simply too interesting to kill. To be honest, Beatrice would probably be interested in setting up a gameboard with John as the MC, based on his reputation alone! XD

All in all, though, John will definetly survive the encounter, and possibly even gain an interesting new contact, should he play his cards right. Though I doubt it'll end in sex, lol. As badass as John is, Battler is literally Beato's reason to exist, so it would take take the con of the century to convince her to do that. Might make an interesting joke battle, though. :p
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Re: John Constantine Vs Beatrice The endless witch

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