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Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:11 pm

Lol aight, you guys don't get that it's not the point I'm making XD but im on break and get off in an hour so I can walk you guys through this.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Zarathustra on Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:21 pm

Kurohige wrote:White Order Phoenix, HOTU Thanos, Dr.Doom, Galactus, Eternity,Dormammu, Shuma Gorath, and one or two others can/have do the same thing and with the exception of Thanos and Phoenix they are not the strongest either.


Only Galactus with the UN can destroy the multiverse, and that's several orders of magnitude lower than Kagutsuchi casually destroying and recreating billions of multiverses every moment just by being alive.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Zarathustra on Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:23 pm

Kurohige wrote:Lol aight, you guys don't get that it's not the point I'm making XD but im on break and get off in an hour so I can walk you guys through this.

So are you saying Living Tribunal should automatically beat everyone because he's omniversal, even when his opponent destroys an infinite multiverse?
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:56 pm

"I'm not even saying who wins here"

Pretty sure I said that, right? In fact I thought we were debating if Marvel has an omniverse or not or if their multiverse is infinite. I dunno when I chimned in about this fight. Only reason I stepped in was because there was lowballing (we'll just call it a misunderstanding for now Very Happy ) of Marvel's reality and its size. Every time I say something as vague as "you guys did not get my point but I'll walk you through it later" you come out with like 6 different assumptions when I'm only addressing one point XD and bait won't work, let's stick to one topic at a time. I know, your hate for Marvel makes it hard and you want to see it belittled as much as possible, but I assure you good things come to those who wait. Maybe when Stan Lee kicks the bucket a new anime fan will take over and change it to be more like Unineko or Demonbane or something. Tha
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:34 am

Anyway, back on-topic, no LT can't beat everyone, he is not all-powerful, close, but no dice. He can and has been beaten. LT watches over the Multiverse and his own higher dimension, The Omniverse is governed by TOAA and CaptainBrit corps Celestial court. Marvel's Multiverse is infinite, and no it's not just one instance, you guys have only shown one instance of a certain percentage of it being destroyed. You know PIS is a thing right, things just as silly or impossible have happened, Remember when Red Hulk picked up Thor's enchanted hammer, not with reality warping, or infinite power or anything, he picked it up because there was no gravity in space LOL, it's still PIS, so is Captian America beating up Onslaught and Hulk (Twice) in hand to hand combat. Or Wolvering pwning Thanos and Silver Surfer, oh or Punisher fighting Ulik, a dude that goes hand in hand with Thor? Or Wolverine blitzing Thor? Flash running into Deathroke's sword? PIS is everywhere, you can find and nitpick, doesn't make is a canon source.

Now Marvel's Multivers Is infinite, this has been stated officially and within the material and writers mutiple times:
"The Multiverse is the collection of alternate universes that share a universal hierarchy; it is a subsection of the larger Omniverse, the collection of all alternate universes. A large variety of these universes were originated from another due to a major decision on the part of a character. Some can seem to be taking place in the past or future due to differences in how time passes in each universe. Often, new universes are born due to time traveling, and another name for these new universes is an "alternate timeline". There is "literally a transfinite number, that is, a number greater than infinity" of universes in the multiverse. [1]"-Source-http://marvel.wikia.com/Multiverse

They even go on to describe the difference between a dimension and Universe in Marvel:
"A dimension is described as "universe or realm containing space, time, matter, and energy". [3] The realms of gods and demons are extrinsic dimensions, rather than being only adjacent realities. They are situated beyond the main universes. [1] The realms are pocket-dimensions whith limited size [1] [3], while the universes contained within the multiverse don't have boundaries."

Now, that is within Marvel's reality, Marvel is also joined with image comics, Malibu comics, Razorline ect. which is their own Multiverse, however still apart of the Omniverse. When one mentions Marvel's Infinite Multiverse Image, Malibu ect. are not inlcuded, Marvel's multiverse is still infinite mind you, but dos not include the multiverse of the other series. Malibu and the rest that signed with them are apart of the Omniverse. Those guys are not Marvel characters BUT are still a apart of their Omniverse.

Now, again, the Multiverse has always been infinite




I mean LT kinda rules over the personification of Eternity and Infinity:



I mean this is nothing new. You guys can deny it all you want, but it's infinite. Reminds me of the argument Dream had with Cerus a while back on AV, similar arguments made and just as easily debunked: http://www.animevice.com/forums/battles/33/bernkastel-vs-amatsu-mikaboshi-marvel/347306/?page=10
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Zarathustra on Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:58 pm

Kurohige wrote:Anyway, back on-topic, no LT can't beat everyone, he is not all-powerful, close, but no dice. He can and has been beaten. LT watches over the Multiverse and his own higher dimension, The Omniverse is governed by TOAA and CaptainBrit corps Celestial court. Marvel's Multiverse is infinite, and no it's not just one instance, you guys have only shown one instance of a certain percentage of it being destroyed. You know PIS is a thing right, things just as silly or impossible have happened, Remember when Red Hulk picked up Thor's enchanted hammer, not with reality warping, or infinite power or anything, he picked it up because there was no gravity in space LOL, it's still PIS, so is Captian America beating up Onslaught and Hulk (Twice) in hand to hand combat. Or Wolvering pwning Thanos and Silver Surfer, oh or Punisher fighting Ulik, a dude that goes hand in hand with Thor? Or Wolverine blitzing Thor? Flash running into Deathroke's sword? PIS is everywhere, you can find and nitpick, doesn't make is a canon source.

Now Marvel's Multivers Is infinite, this has been stated officially and within the material and writers mutiple times:
"The Multiverse is the collection of alternate universes that share a universal hierarchy; it is a subsection of the larger Omniverse, the collection of all alternate universes. A large variety of these universes were originated from another due to a major decision on the part of a character. Some can seem to be taking place in the past or future due to differences in how time passes in each universe. Often, new universes are born due to time traveling, and another name for these new universes is an "alternate timeline". There is "literally a transfinite number, that is, a number greater than infinity" of universes in the multiverse
They even go on to describe the difference between a dimension and Universe in Marvel:
"A dimension is described as "universe or realm containing space, time, matter, and energy". [3] The realms of gods and demons are extrinsic dimensions, rather than being only adjacent realities. They are situated beyond the main universes. [1] The realms are pocket-dimensions whith limited size [1] [3], while[b] the universes contained within the multiverse don't have boundaries
."

Now, that is within Marvel's reality, Marvel is also joined with image comics, Malibu comics, Razorline ect. which is their own Multiverse, however still apart of the Omniverse. When one mentions Marvel's Infinite Multiverse Image, Malibu ect. are not inlcuded, Marvel's multiverse is still infinite mind you, but dos not include the multiverse of the other series. Malibu and the rest that signed with them are apart of the Omniverse. Those guys are not Marvel characters BUT are still a apart of their Omniverse.

Now, again, the Multiverse has always been infinite


I mean this is nothing new. You guys can deny it all you want, but it's infinite. Reminds me of the argument Dream had with Cerus a while back on AV, similar arguments made and just as easily debunked

Comic book writers don't know what they're talking about. Transfinite is NOT bigger than infinite. What a joke! Transfinite refers to the set of all real, natural, odd, prime, even numbers, while infinity is even bigger than all of that. Absolute infinity is the highest you can get period. If the universes can be contained inside a multiverse, then the universes aren't infinitely large. If the multiverses can be contained inside a megaverse, then the multiverses aren't infinitely large. If the megaverses can be contained inside LT's hand, then the megaverses aren't infinitely large.

That simple.

It's either infinitely large or it's not.

It doesn't matter what comic book writers have to say on the matter. If they say the multiverse is infinite, but then prove it's not by having things bigger than the multiverse, then all they've proven was that they don't understand the concept of infinity.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:45 pm

It's literally right there, you don't have to accept it but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist comic books or fiction in general are INLY limited by the authors imagination. You don't have to like it nor agree with it but at the end of the days it's there, it's canon and it's always been that way. I find it funny that this gives you issues yet Demonbane's infinitexinfinite Big Bang is A-okay lol. Bias business as usual around here, eh?
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Zarathustra on Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:51 pm

Kurohige wrote:It's literally right there, you don't have to accept it but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist comic books or fiction in general are INLY limited by the authors imagination. You don't have to like it nor agree with it but at the end of the days it's there, it's canon and it's always been that way. I find it funny that this gives you issues yet Demonbane's infinitexinfinite Big Bang is A-okay lol. Bias business as usual around here, eh?

When did I ever use Infinity * Infinity Big Bang as an argument? I never did. Demonbane can destroy an infinite amount of universes. I never said he can destroy larger than infinite universes.

Like I said before, it doesn't matter what the comic book writers say. If they say the multiverse is infinite, but then show stuff to be bigger than the multiverse, then the multiverse wasn't infinite to begin with.

As for Demonbane, yes casually destroying and creating an infinite amount of universes every moment as a side effect of fighting is far more impressive than anything shown in comics. Not to mention there are beings who can one shot those beings in Demonbane.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:25 pm

Riiight. So anyway we already established that Marvel's multiverse is infinite. We also know they have an omniverse that hold other partnered infinite multiverse. That's the only point im making. You don't agree with it, that's fine, the fact is that it's there and as real as you and I. That's tge point I'm making.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:42 am

Kurohige wrote:Riiight. So anyway we already established that Marvel's multiverse is infinite. We also know they have an omniverse that hold other partnered infinite multiverse. That's the only point im making. You don't agree with it, that's fine, the fact is that it's there and as real as you and I. That's tge point I'm making.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. If it's infinite, it can't get any larger, infinity is a concept not a number. Besides, "Transfinite numbers are numbers that are "infinite" in the sense that they are larger than all finite numbers, yet not necessarily absolutely infinite"
- Taken from wikipedia

So by the writers own misunderstanding of transfinite numbers they admitted that the multiverse is not infinite.

Also, in the first scan nothing is said about the nature of the multiverses other than that TLT is omnipresent within them.

In the second scan however, "When Zom was unleashed -- even for so short a span -- the very framework of infinity was rent asunder!"

Just because the writer says it doesn't mean it's applicable when it's that^ ridiculous. If you can accept that rendering the concept of infinity meaningless is fine, and by a non-omnipotent being nonetheless, then you also have to accept that Suggsverse containing infinite omniverses and infinite omnipotent beings with beings infinitely above omnipotence is completely fine and should be taken 100% seriously.

Couldn't read the third scan but thanks for posting.

In the fourth scan it's only specifying that there are universes with roughly 3 spatial dimensions to 6 (Notice the decimal point), and that they are all made into clusters and that LT rules over Man's cluster. Nothing about infinity there.

In the final scan there is absolutely no questioning that LT rules over lesser abstracts, however, while Infinity does indeed reperesent the concept of space expanding forever, that doesn't mean the multiverse itself is infinite already.

I hate using wikis but since you used marvel.wikia.com it's only fair game for me to use it: *********"Eternity and Infinity were in constant competition with Death and Oblivion, with Galactus providing a balance between the two sides of the struggle. This competition was not hostile, but an inevitable result of their natural purposes. Where Eternity and Infinity tried to expand life and the universe, Death and Oblivion desired to reduce it, usually to a point where there was an exact balance between life and death, but some times they seemed to want the complete end of existence.

In this conflict, Oblivion endowed his champion, Maelstrom with some of his power, making him his avatar. Maelstrom tried to end Infinity. To stop him, Infinity made Quasar her own avatar. Quasar won and Oblivion and Infinity came to a new agreement. [1] The role of Infinity was thought to be one of great importance to the workings of the Marvel Universe, but exactly what her role is has yet to be defined."***************

So what the astral entity Infinity represents is the potential of space expanding infinitely, she does not represent the supposition that the multiverse is already infinite.
And the fact that Death and Oblivion are at odds with Eternity and Infinity they won't let the multiverse to expand infinitely, that pretty much proves it.

If that didn't convince you we'll just have to agree to disagree.

EDIT: I noticed that you were referring to the (Et cetera) in that scan about spatial dimensions, however just because a number has infinite numbers of of ever decreasing decimal degrees doesn't mean it's infinitely large. (Pi)'s digits go on forever but that doesn't (Pi) is infinite in the sense that it surpasses all numbers in existence, else it couldn't be applied in measuring circles or whatnot. Negative infinity is a thing you know.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:25 am

Found the third scan with better quality:


Defintion of "countless": Too many to be counted; very many.

Straight from Oxford dictionary. Just because it's too much to count doesn't mean it's infinite.

Definition of "infinite": Limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

Also from Oxford dictionary.

Countless =/= Infinite.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Gio Gio on Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:54 pm

Uh oh XD I'm scared
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Gio Gio on Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:56 pm

Off topic but isn't infinity already something defined without limits?
I mean you can't go beyond infinity. And if you do infinityXinfinity its still infinity.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Omnivortex on Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:13 pm

How strong is kagutsuchi?
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:32 pm

Omnivortex wrote:How strong is kagutsuchi?
Creates billions of universes at every moment while ending the same amount and is the concept of all of creation and existence personified, which includes a potentially infinite multiverse.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:43 pm

ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Omnivortex wrote:How strong is kagutsuchi?
Creates billions of universes at every moment while ending the same amount and is the concept of all of creation and existence personified, which includes a potentially infinite multiverse.

(Potentially)? XD
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:44 pm

Gio Gio wrote:Off topic but isn't infinity already something defined without limits?
I mean you can't go beyond infinity. And if you do infinityXinfinity its still infinity.
Scared of what?

And yeah that's what infinity is. Being beyond the concept of infinity is impossible, and infinity will always be infinity no matter what, it's a concept not a number.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:51 pm

EVA_01 wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Omnivortex wrote:How strong is kagutsuchi?
Creates billions of universes at every moment while ending the same amount and is the concept of all of creation and existence personified, which includes a potentially infinite multiverse.

(Potentially)? XD
Oh so it's confirmed to be infinite? Why didn't you tell me? XD
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:00 pm

Why do you think I was so friggin confident in saying that DF tanked the collapse of infinite universes? XD
Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha, Shin Megami Tensei IV, Shin Megami Tensei if... present the primary evidences. Other installments allude to it like Digital Devil Saga, Megami Tensei II, and whatnot.

EDIT: Got that mixed up for a sec. Swap if... with MT II
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Omnivortex on Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:06 pm

EVA_01 wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Omnivortex wrote:How strong is kagutsuchi?
Creates billions of universes at every moment while ending the same amount and is the concept of all of creation and existence personified, which includes a potentially infinite multiverse.

(Potentially)? XD
seems OP as hell, but LT is also OP ,he is 16th dimensional.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:15 pm

Omnivortex wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Omnivortex wrote:How strong is kagutsuchi?
Creates billions of universes at every moment while ending the same amount and is the concept of all of creation and existence personified, which includes a potentially infinite multiverse.

(Potentially)? XD
seems OP as hell, but LT is also OP ,he is 16th dimensional.

Lemme give you a rundown.

There is the SMT verse, SMT stands for Shin Megami Tensei. The verse is comprised of a collection of universes called the Amala multiverse, along with universes / realms / dimensions that exist outside of Amala.

Collectively, the verse is made up of infinite universes, some of these universes are planes of non-existence, some of them are metaphysical, and some of them are hyperdimensional.

Kagutsuchi is the concept of creation itself, it represents, manages, and embodies all of existence, each and every universe (called "worlds") there is, it pivots all fundamental concepts such as time, death, life, space, and pretty much any concept needed to establish existence.

Kagutsuchi, by its presence alone, creates and destroys billions of universes every passing moment without doing anything. By it's nature since it pivots all existential concepts, it surpasses all dimensions by default.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Zarathustra on Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:31 pm

Eva, you're 100% right on everything so far.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:36 pm

Zarathustra wrote:Eva, you're 100% right on everything so far.
Thanks Man *bows*
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Zarathustra on Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:46 pm

EVA_01 wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:Eva, you're 100% right on everything so far.
Thanks Man *bows*

No problem. Too bad VS Battles won't accept this thread as a legitimate victory for Kagutsuchi.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:49 pm

Zarathustra wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:Eva, you're 100% right on everything so far.
Thanks Man *bows*

No problem. Too bad VS Battles won't accept this thread as a legitimate victory for Kagutsuchi.

Have you seen their wiki entries? Of course they won't.
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