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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:21 pm

Naruto Uzumaki wrote:
dhalsim wrote:
Naruto Uzumaki wrote:
dhalsim wrote:
Naruto Uzumaki wrote:
dhalsim wrote:
Naruto Uzumaki wrote:LT governs Multiverses even of different fictions......he can surely win here.

Nope. Kagutsuchi blinks and kills LT.
Not really like I states all before
LT is Megaverse level
LT governs other fictions published by marvel
LT curbstomps

Megaverse is finite.

The SMT multiverse is infinite.

Infinite multiverse > finite megaverse.

Kagutsuchi can destroy and recreate the infinite multiverse on a whim.

Kagutsuchi curb stomps.
Not really
Omniverse>>>>>>Megaverse>>>>>>>>>>>>Multiverses+>>>>Multiverse>>>>>>>Universes

You can't be bigger than infinity. Marvel's omniverse is finite, while SMT's multiverse is infinite.

Infinite multiverse = infinite universe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite omniverse >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite megaverse >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite multiverse >>>>>>>>>>>> finite universe.
Lol
Marvel+DC Omniverse>>>>>SMT Multiverse+other real fictions

Seeing as the SMT verse is infinite, with a character (who's not even the strongest in SMT, mind you) who destroys an infinite amount of multiverses, as easily as you or I would blink or breathe, then that's just an opinion. No one, save possibly Beyonder, MM, or TOAA, can replicate such a feat.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:03 am

White Order Phoenix, HOTU Thanos, Dr.Doom, Galactus, Eternity,Dormammu, Shuma Gorath, and one or two others can/have do the same thing and with the exception of Thanos and Phoenix they are not the strongest either.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Akronawol17 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:07 am

Kurohige wrote:White Order Phoenix, HOTU Thanos, Dr.Doom, Galactus, Eternity,Dormammu, Shuma Gorath, and one or two others can/have do the same thing and with the exception of Thanos and Phoenix they are not the strongest either.
None of them, save Shuma Gorath and Phoenix because i don't know them, are capable of destroying infinite multiverses. Even MM could only destroy billions of dimensions with a full power attack, which Kagu could do casually.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:20 am

The Multiverse is infinite in Marvel, MM also easily recreated said Multiverse after Beyonder destroyed it. That blast was only stated to be able to destroy a billion dimensions, nothings about it said full power, it looked kinda casual to me anyways. Also, when him and Beyonder clashed reality was feeling the effects. Come on now lol, even if you don't agree they would win at least let them have the feats they performed.
I mean the Big G. himself has feats too:
He can be a multi-versal power with the Ultimate Nullifier.
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=9te0.jpg    
http://img371.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10qt9.jpg    
" The time will come soon when ALL the Energy in the UNIVERSE,
through out it's HISTORY will NOT be SUFFICIENT to feed him"    

http://img401.imageshack.us/i/20396565ii7.jpg/    
" Galactus' appetite became insatiable
and it threatened to consume All Existence"

http://img181.imageshack.us/i/biggomni1iq6.jpg/      
"Celestial renegade (Taimut) constructed a weapon (Galactus)
mighty enough to threaten the ENTIRE Space-Time structure of the OMNIVERSE"

     Rom 27(casually transported an entire galaxy through time and space, with a mere thought)
Fantastic Four v3 48-49(Ultimate Nullifier)
Cosmic Powers Unlimited(Tyrant fight, casual galaxy busting once again)
Fantastic Four 339-341(Black Celestial Arc, he was eating entire universes, he ate a celestial)
Annihilation #6('herald my rage' blast which wiped out 9 solar systems, also Annihilus said that he had the power to destroy two universes)
Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Comic Book Magazine 11(Doom with Galactus's power one-shotted a sky-father(some say that Doom also held the Cosmic Cube, but he didn't)
Last Planet Standing(non-canon to Galactus, but canon to the Living Tribunal)(most powerful Galactus seen so far, the LT couldn't stop him)
Infinity War(Resisted the power of FIVE UNRESTRICTED COSMIC CUBES! A single CC can create entire universes)
Infinity War(resurrected himself and his companions even though Death itself didn't want him to)


Those are from Black Celestial Arc (Fantastic Four 337-341)

He also fused with UN which can destroy and create entire timelines and saved the Omniverse from Impossible man


I will get feats for the others mentioned later but yeah, they all can potentially multiverse bust, on average Galactus is Universal+ yeah.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Akronawol17 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:09 am

The Marvel multiverse is not infinite. The fact a that being was able to consume 98% of it proves that. So it may be large, but not infinite, and therefore not as impressive imo.

Also, MM's feat wasn't casual. He was trying his hardest to kill Beyonder. It doesn't look like it took much out of him, granted, but he held nothing back. He was trying to kill Beyonder at all costs.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:40 am

Kagutsuchi's mere presence (Literally doing absolutely nothing, just being there) destroys and recreates billions of universes every passing moment. He is the pivot of SMT which consists of infinite universes, he's the embodiment of every universe in Amala, even outer universes like The Diamond Realm or The Shadow Vortices, and even intrinsic universes like Seth's universe and Loki's universe.
When TDE DF erased him on a conceptual level, all of creation immediately collapsed and left in a state of dimensionless non-existence, he's a higher order of being than LT, who even though is claimed to be the representation of every universe in marvel, does not pivot creation since nothing really collapsed when the Ivory Kings killed him .
Basically, he's the concept of creation itself.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:51 am

On that note, Kagu wins.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EvilMegaCookie on Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:25 am

Kagutsuchi wins this due to aforementioned reasons.

Hadn't the Beyonders defeated LT, I would've actually argued for LT. But now his position as the 2nd most powerful being in Marvel is pretty much thoroughly debunked. Unless they pull a major retcon and gives him insane feats out of nowhere.

Now that I think about it: Did the entire race do it or just three of 'em? If just three did it, then they are ridiculously powerful as a race.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:04 pm

Akronawol17 wrote:The Marvel multiverse is not infinite. The fact a that being was able to consume 98% of it proves that. So it may be large, but not infinite, and therefore not as impressive imo.

Also, MM's feat wasn't casual. He was trying his hardest to kill Beyonder. It doesn't look like it took much out of him, granted, but he held nothing back. He was trying to kill Beyonder at all costs.

"Throught infinite Multiverses" Smile
I also don't think that one instance should trump the other couple dozen or so that state the contrary. I think people are a bit confused on Marvel's omniverse too, the Multiverse includes multiverple infinite universes, the Omniverse, Marvel's Omniverse, just so happens to be our Omniverse because there is only one.

All realities, fictional or real are part of the Omniverse. But how are they all part of the Omniverse? The beginning of every universe/reality starts from the same place. This place is beyond time/space/reality. This place is nothing yet it is everything. Mathematically this place is represented by the number 0. You should know 0 is the symbol which represents nothing but you may also know it represents Infinity. So this place beyond all time and space which is nothing yet everything is represented by us humans as the symbol 0. All realities/universes come from 0, or infinity. A multiverse can be very unique in its physics, laws and any other way you want to imagine, but it still started from 0, infinity. 0 is everything. Every universe, reality, paralel universe, multiverse, everything.

Another thing to think about, is who is TOAA? Many people claim that TOAA is the writor/editor, stan lee, what have you. While the writor/creator of the marvel universe is above all those he creates he is still part of our reality/universe which is still tied to our physics. So even if the marvel characters are fictional, TOAA who creates the Marvel universe and everything in it is still part of our own universe, multiverse, omniverse. And by definition the Omniverse is EVERY multiverse real or fictional.

Tl;Dr: Multiverse: infinite Universes in Marvel
Omniverse: All multiverses, real or fiction or whatever other company that has a universe.

I can name 3 different multiverse of marvel
and 2 multiversus in dc , DC comics is one multiverse(which once contained an infinite amount of universes within it), and vertigo is a seperate multiverse(which itself contain an infinite amout of universes in it) though they both belong in "DC's Omni-verse" Marvel Comics has its own omniverse. But since Marvel and DC had a crossover, we can also say DC's omniverse includes Marvel's multiverses. vice versa.

I'm not evens saying who wins here, just clearing that up.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:06 pm

As for MM no, since his later showings were much more powerful, he was angry, but he assumed that that power would have been enough.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:15 pm

And then I publish a work and state it's not a part of Marvel's little Omniverse, completely throwing their claim out the window. No choice either because they have no claim over my work. Not like it matters since Marvel doesn't have a thing on anything that isn't a part of their franchise. It really does irk me when people use downright stupid claims like their meaningful. That infinite multiverse is what makes up their Omniverse. Fact.


Last edited by ChaosKnight75 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:19 pm

Are we gonna say TOAA is omnipotent over other works with their own established God?
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:31 pm

I'm just telling you things that are official, the multiverse is different than the omniverse, being even watch over the omniverse. That is a fact. The point is that the multiverse in Marvel is infinite and different from the omniverse. I'm not getting into that other part of the debate. Write Marvel with your complaints.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Akronawol17 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:34 pm

Again, it's not infinite when a set percent of it can be destroyed. You can't just ignore that in favor of that one statement.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:40 pm

Kurohige wrote:I'm just telling you things that are official, the multiverse is different than the omniverse, being even watch over the omniverse. That is a fact. The point is that the multiverse in Marvel is infinite and different from the omniverse. I'm not getting into that other part of the debate. Write Marvel with your complaints.
Know how many will take you seriously. Real life is a part of Marvel's Omniverse when everything that is Marvel wasn't even a thought half a century ago? So does TOAA have claim over us? Nice to know the church down the street I live in has been worshipping a fucking comic book character. Why don't you go to a church and spread the word of who their god is. Word for word what you just wrote. I don't need to write a letter to Marvel since it doesn't take much to figure out how insignificant their "Omniverse" is.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:21 pm

And like that you both missed the point, go figure. I'll adress the important stuff in no more than 1 paragraph: Marvel's multiverse is different than the Marvel omniverse, they are in no way the same. The Marvel multiverse is infinite, this has been stated officially by writers and chapters alike. One instance of a certain amount being destroyed is as much PIS as Spider-Man beating Firelord or Thanos getting taken down by the NYPD.
Everything else you are complaining about is your own problem. I never knew TOAA had a church, not even characters in Marvel place him as a figure of prayer and worship, go figure O.O
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Akronawol17 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:32 pm

So one mention of "through infinite multiverses" debunks a set feat done by a character? I think not. That statement is more then likely hyperbole, when a stated unit of measurement is given on the multiverse as a whole. Again, it's not infinite. You can't destroy/consume/erase 98% of infinity.

When you compare statements, which sounds more reliable? The one that vaguely says "through infinite multiverses", or the one that gives a direct estimate on how much of the multiverse was destroyed? I think i'll go with the one that doesn't sound like a hyperbole.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:43 pm

Akronawol17 wrote:So one mention of "through infinite multiverses" debunks a set feat done by a character? I think not. That statement is more then likely hyperbole, when a stated unit of measurement is given on the multiverse as a whole. Again, it's not infinite. You can't destroy/consume/erase 98% of infinity.

When you compare statements, which sounds more reliable? The one that vaguely says "through infinite multiverses", or the one that gives a direct estimate on how much of the multiverse was destroyed? I think i'll go with the one that doesn't sound like a hyperbole.

That, and the fact that Marvel cannot be an Omniverse at all because that would include our reality, which isn't the case since no matter what the writer writes it's still a work fiction. Not only that, but if it really was an Omniverse they would have had their ass sued to next Tuesday by pretty much anyone with intellectual property, and I don't think they'd risk that.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by EVA_01 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:45 pm

Honestly the term Omniverse is extremely stupid, nothing short of Suggsverse territory.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by dhalsim on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:07 pm

Kurohige wrote:I'm just telling you things that are official, the multiverse is different than the omniverse, being even watch over the omniverse. That is a fact. The point is that the multiverse in Marvel is infinite and different from the omniverse. I'm not getting into that other part of the debate. Write Marvel with your complaints.

Why would we write to Marvel for our complaints? They don't understand the concept of infinity, so their made up terms have no value. It doesn't matter what Marvel has to say in the matter, you can't be bigger than infinity. If anything is bigger than the multiverse, the multiverse isn't truly infinite to begin with.

Also if you want to go by that route, Demonbane was stated to be above omnipotence by its writer. So yeah, there's that.

SMT multiverse = infinite. Marvel multiverse = finite. Marvel megaverse = finite. SMT> Marvel.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by dhalsim on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:15 pm

Also Kagutsuchi destroys and creates a billion universes every moment just as a nature of its existence. No one in Marvel has shown feats above that. Infinite multiverse destruction is nothing to SMT characters.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Zarathustra on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:33 pm

Kurohige wrote:And like that you both missed the point, go figure. I'll adress the important stuff in no more than 1 paragraph: Marvel's multiverse is different than the Marvel omniverse, they are in no way the same. The Marvel multiverse is infinite, this has been stated officially by writers and chapters alike. One instance of a certain amount being destroyed is as much PIS as Spider-Man beating Firelord or Thanos getting taken down by the NYPD.
Everything else you are complaining about is your own problem. I never knew TOAA had a church, not even characters in Marvel place him as a figure of prayer and worship, go figure O.O

Why don't we for a moment forget about terminology? All that ultimately matters is the size of the verse we are dealing with.

The omniverse is infinitely large right? So is the SMT multiverse. So being omniversal is the same as being multiversal. So destroying infinite multiverse = destroying infinite omniverse. Since we know Marvel characters can destroy the multiverse, but not the omniverse, that means their power is limited, meaning the multiverse isn't truly infinite if it can be destroyed by limited power. See where I'm getting at?
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Kurohige on Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:29 pm

You guys completely don't get it... I'm on my phone right now but you guys have it all wrong and no it was not one instance, did you read the comics Aka?
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

Post by Zarathustra on Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:29 pm

Kurohige wrote:You guys completely don't get it... I'm on my phone right now but you guys have it all wrong and no it was not one instance, did you read the comics Aka?

What's there to not get? Infinity is infinity. You can't get any bigger than that. Omniverse and megaverse are just made up terms that don't actually increase the size of the cosmology.

You can't apply Marvel/DC exclusive terms to other fictions. An infinitely large cosmology is the highest you can get, whether that be a single infinitely large universe, or an infinite amount of finite universes.
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Re: Kagutsuchi vs Living Tribunal

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