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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by sierra117 on Sun May 10, 2015 11:55 am

-Endless Nine Barrier: A barrier that grants immunity to magic attacks. To put into perspective, magic resistance is scaled from 1-9, 1 being the weakest and 9 being God level immunity. Battler has God level immunity multiplied by infinity, this grants complete immunity to higher-dimension multiple universal magic attacks.


And the fight between Bern and Battler:
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sun May 10, 2015 12:04 pm


We both know what he can do, we're just debating the limit of Endless 9. I believe that it's infinite, and Kuro beliieves that it caps out in the multiversal range.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Sun May 10, 2015 1:30 pm

Kurohige wrote:Can someone list the other guy's best destructive feat? He doesn't need conceptual attacks to get past Battler nor Endless 9' PIS so please don't give me any BS on how it doens't matter, I was actually able to read the VN thanks to Fuwnovel. That feat and most feats I was told in general were blown way out of proportion in that battle with Bern... and huge ass NLF.
Demi-Fiend? Destroyed the concept of creation itself and wiped out all possible reality, which includes the infinite universes that make up Amala, leaving behind nothing but a void where time no longer exists and creation no longer possible and is ready to kick the ass of the Nigh-Omnipotent Great Will
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by trexalfa on Sun May 10, 2015 1:54 pm

ChaosKnight75 wrote:
Kurohige wrote:Can someone list the other guy's best destructive feat? He doesn't need conceptual attacks to get past Battler nor Endless 9' PIS so please don't give me any BS on how it doens't matter, I was actually able to read the VN thanks to Fuwnovel. That feat and most feats I was told in general were blown way out of proportion in that battle with Bern... and huge ass NLF.
Demi-Fiend? Destroyed the concept of creation itself and wiped out all possible reality, which includes the infinite universes that make up Amala, leaving behind nothing but a void where time no longer exists and creation no longer possible and is ready to kick the ass of the Nigh-Omnipotent Great Will

I'm quite confident the claim of "destroying the concept of creation" is complete bullshit, having done it across the Amala incredibly vague (though I agree), and we don't know how the battle against the Great Will went, so hold your horses (also, saying "nigh omnipotent" , which by the way is unsupported, is not a feat. Using powerscalling from Kagutsuchi is a better claim).

And I completely agree with Kurohige, Endless Nine has got a limit somewhere in the multiversal range. Though I believe this limit is not relevant enough in this battle anyway.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Kurohige on Sun May 10, 2015 5:25 pm

sierra117 wrote:-Endless Nine Barrier: A barrier that grants immunity to magic attacks. To put into perspective, magic resistance is scaled from 1-9, 1 being the weakest and 9 being God level immunity. Battler has God level immunity multiplied by infinity, this grants complete immunity to higher-dimension multiple universal magic attacks.


And the fight between Bern and Battler:
Umm, thanks? I know what the ability does, I read the series and Cerus would always link to playthrough in all his arguments back on the Vice. I'm arguing the limit of the ability as well as the whole conceptual attack stuff going on.

Chef_Banchou wrote:

Well, they are mysteries in the manifested form of a snake...what would you call that? They were called both serpents and mysteries multiple times during the fight, they aren't one or the other, their both; mysteries in the form of snakes. A mystery is a concept, that's a fact. I'm not comparing it to other powers, all I'm saying is that the snakes were stated to be literal mysteries, formed into snakes. If I'm not mistaken, Umineko characters fight with physical manifestations of concepts quite a few times, so why act like the concept has to be formless to be legit?

Also, I know. That's what I meant. I just wanted to point out how, due to lack of proof for either argument, neither of us can say for sure. However, his magical ablility is to make everything he does with his powers effectively endless/limitless, so there is plenty of room to argue that E9 is infinite. We just can't say it's 100% gurenteed.

Then it's not a conceptual level attack, at least not on the level you are referring to. She manipulated a concept and made it take physical form, this is no different from the concepts you argued against in the Beyonder thread like Death, Time and eternity. Fact is those concepts were physical, she did not just use a concept to attack she had to manifest it into a physical attack so yes physical attacks can get past Endless 9 if Battler doesn't know what it is or it's properties, like he would not be able to use Endless 9 as a defense against a Stand ability. I'm not arguing against mystery being a concept, what i'm saying is that she used a mystery, which could be anything, and made it take form then attacked. She did not take a concept which has no form mind you, and attack with it. Also they also use physical attacks that have been more affective than any concept-like attack such as Battler simply punching.

I also get what the description for the move is, however for one it already contradicts itself when it says it can defend from any and everything, however he can't do anything against mysteries, despite manifested mysteries by default being something unnatural.
And again if we allow endless 9 to be infinite based on that minimal evidence then that would also flip a lot of debated on their heads, mainly anything involving GER, the Chousen, or quite a few jutsu in Naruto. It's no different from using the daizenshuu as evidence in DBZ debates rather than panel feats and if they contradict each other or provide info for feats that were never established such as beginning of series Goku being able to crack a planet in half despite not having the ability to until he foguht Vegeta, but the daizenshuu says he could do that in the fight with Raditz, that is just one of many reasons why we go by the best showing.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sun May 10, 2015 5:41 pm

Kurohige wrote:
sierra117 wrote:-Endless Nine Barrier: A barrier that grants immunity to magic attacks. To put into perspective, magic resistance is scaled from 1-9, 1 being the weakest and 9 being God level immunity. Battler has God level immunity multiplied by infinity, this grants complete immunity to higher-dimension multiple universal magic attacks.


And the fight between Bern and Battler:
Umm, thanks? I know what the ability does, I read the series and Cerus would always link to playthrough in all his arguments back on the Vice. I'm arguing the limit of the ability as well as the whole conceptual attack stuff going on.

Chef_Banchou wrote:

Well, they are mysteries in the manifested form of a snake...what would you call that? They were called both serpents and mysteries multiple times during the fight, they aren't one or the other, their both; mysteries in the form of snakes. A mystery is a concept, that's a fact. I'm not comparing it to other powers, all I'm saying is that the snakes were stated to be literal mysteries, formed into snakes. If I'm not mistaken, Umineko characters fight with physical manifestations of concepts quite a few times, so why act like the concept has to be formless to be legit?

Also, I know. That's what I meant. I just wanted to point out how, due to lack of proof for either argument, neither of us can say for sure. However, his magical ablility is to make everything he does with his powers effectively endless/limitless, so there is plenty of room to argue that E9 is infinite. We just can't say it's 100% gurenteed.

Then it's not a conceptual level attack, at least not on the level you are referring to. She manipulated a concept and made it take physical form, this is no different from the concepts  you argued against in the Beyonder thread like Death, Time and eternity. Fact is those concepts were physical, she did not just use a concept to attack she had to manifest it into a physical attack so yes physical attacks can get past Endless 9 if Battler doesn't know what it is or it's properties, like he would not be able to use Endless 9 as a defense against a Stand ability.  I'm not arguing against mystery being a concept, what i'm saying is that she used a mystery, which could be anything, and made it take form then attacked. She did not take a concept which has no form mind you, and attack with it. Also they also use physical attacks that have been more affective than any concept-like attack such as Battler simply punching.

I also get what the description for the move is, however for one it already contradicts itself when it says it can defend from any and everything, however he can't do anything against mysteries, despite manifested mysteries by default being something unnatural.
And again if we allow endless 9 to be infinite based on that minimal evidence then that would also flip a lot of debated on their heads, mainly anything involving GER, the Chousen, or quite a few jutsu in Naruto. It's no different from using the daizenshuu as evidence in DBZ debates rather than panel feats and if they contradict each other or provide info for feats that were never established such as beginning of series Goku being able to crack a planet in half despite not having the ability to until he foguht Vegeta, but the daizenshuu says he could do that in the fight with Raditz, that is just one of many reasons why we go by the best showing.

Oh, that's what you were talking about? I know its in physical form, I never thought it was formless or noncorpreal or anything. I'm just saying that its common for Umineko characters to summon concepts in physical form. But for the record, its not compareable to Beyonder, because Beyonder required certain means and whatnot to manipulate a concept, while Umineko witches/scorcerers can do so by waving their hand. Beyonder can do it, just not as easily or in the same way.

Also, that would be a valid point, however the big difference between DBZ assumptions of infinite power, and Umineko, is that Endless 9 was stated to be infinite in scope and has shown no definite limit, whereas DBZ has definetly shown limits. Also, while its true that the mysteries/serpents were physical and were capable of bypassing E9, they were still concepts, nonetheless. So I still stand firm that only conceptual attacks, albeit physical or incorpreal, are capable of bypassing Endless 9.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Kurohige on Tue May 12, 2015 9:34 pm

That makes no sense, first of all physical or not it had the same properties as any other attack they have done, nothing special about it, in fact Battler straight up punched Bern and that did far more damage than any "cocneptual" attack and regardless of if the concept had physical form or not as long as Battler knows what it is he should be able to negate it, however that was not the case, he simply could not negate mysteries regardless of if they are concepts or not. That being said given the evidence with Bern being punched and the fact that Bern also thought an attack that could destroy universes would harm Battler suggest that they were using non conceptual attacks and that raw power does indeed have a basis even amongst their hax. There is too much evidence against it to suggest conceptual attacks are the only way to harm them or get past Endless 9 especially since Endless 9 clearly states it's weakness. And no it is comparable, Beyonder required no special means. Beyonder can casually reality warp without any effort. He can create a multiverse on a whim these multiverses would include their own concepts no?

He also killed and revived Death (without difficulty) who is just the embodiment of well, death, a conceptual being if you will within Marvel verse. By special means you mean putting his power in a cup and making her drink it? He did that to avoid a fight and it was likely the best way rather than just up and erasing it not to mention he was unsure if he could bring death back again, not because he did not have enough power but because he never did that before. Beyonder having no conceptual attacks ? That's like saying a Martial Artist has no punch attacks. The guy can basically do whatever the heck he wants whenever he wants. He's not a DBZ character... Only blasts ? Come on. He also brought Death back, the only difficulty he had was an emotional one, since after he brough death back he showed no sings of fatigue or any of his power being lessened.

Endless 9 has shown limits, in the same way GER has yet you all accepts universal as a cap, it is also weak against mysteries, Bern could have made those universal attacks out of something mysterious rather than just a magical blast and bye bye Battler. Also while ont he subject of Beyonder Battler would know nothing about him, Beyonder himself would be a complete enigma let alone his power, while Endless 9 can indeed protect against anything fictional, he can't do anything against mysteries no matter what a being such as Beyonder who is even out of MM's imagination would certainly count.

And no, as long as it is a mystery you can bypass endless 9. this was quite clear and a definite weakness in Battler's Endless 9.

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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by sierra117 on Wed May 13, 2015 3:36 am

I just want to remind you that the fight between Bern and Battler happen inside a game board so they have to obey the rules, and those "misteries" Bern used aren't some random and normal misteries but proper "misteries" like Rokkenjima Incident and its took form of snakes just because it's easy for her opponents and Featherine to watch(the harder the mistery is, the bigger the size of those snake), and to deal with it, Battler also have to use conceptual attack (with took form of his sword) (well, because my vocabularies reach its limit so i don't know how to describe it clearly, but i hopes you guys got the idea), so i don't think that "as long as it is mistery you can bypass E9" can apply to this case
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Chef_Banchou on Wed May 13, 2015 5:32 am

Kurohige wrote:That makes no sense, first of all physical or not it had the same properties as any other attack they have done, nothing special about it, in fact Battler straight up punched Bern and that did far more damage than any "cocneptual" attack and regardless of if the concept had physical form or not as long as Battler knows what it is he should be able to negate it, however that was not the case, he simply could not negate mysteries regardless of if they are concepts or not. That being said given the evidence with Bern being punched and the fact that Bern also thought an attack that could destroy universes would harm Battler suggest that they were using non conceptual attacks and that raw power does indeed have a basis even amongst their hax. There is too much evidence against it to suggest conceptual attacks are the only way to harm them or get past Endless 9 especially since Endless 9 clearly states it's weakness. And no it is comparable, Beyonder required no special means. Beyonder can casually reality warp without any effort. He can create a multiverse on a whim these multiverses would include their own concepts no?

He also killed and revived Death (without difficulty) who is just the embodiment of well, death, a conceptual being if you will within Marvel verse. By special means you mean putting his power in a cup and making her drink it? He did that to avoid a fight and it was likely the best way rather than just up and erasing it not to mention he was unsure if he could bring death back again, not because he did not have enough power but because he never did that before. Beyonder having no conceptual attacks ? That's like saying a Martial Artist has no punch attacks. The guy can basically do whatever the heck he wants whenever he wants. He's  not a  DBZ character... Only blasts ? Come on. He also brought Death back, the only difficulty he had was an emotional one, since after he brough death back he showed no sings of fatigue or any of his power being lessened.

Endless 9 has shown limits, in the same way GER has yet you all accepts universal as a cap, it is also weak against mysteries, Bern could have made those universal attacks out of something mysterious rather than just a magical blast and bye bye Battler. Also while ont he subject of Beyonder Battler would know nothing about him, Beyonder himself would be a complete enigma let alone his power, while Endless 9 can indeed protect against anything fictional, he can't do anything against mysteries no matter what a being such as Beyonder who is even out of MM's imagination would certainly count.

And no, as long as it is a mystery you can bypass endless 9. this was quite clear and a definite weakness in Battler's Endless 9.


Its not an obvious weakness. For it to be such a blatant, obvious weakness, don't you think one of his many opponents would have utilized it already, other than just Bern? Do you really think only Bern was ever smart enough to find such a weakness? That would be pretty irritating, seeing as he's fought, and defeated, much more intelligent opponents than Bern. And besides, there is a very high possibility that Battler allowed the mysteries to be able to get past Endless 9, in order for them to kill him. He needed the right inspiration to bring out Ange's powers, after all, and he seemed calm and expectant if the following events, even as he lay there, dying. Hell, he even told her that he knows that she can manifest her powers to bring them back, almost as if he allowed himself to be killed, just for Ange to bring out her powers.

Also, please understand that I don't want to get into arguments where both Battler AND Beyonder are involved, because it could lead to another debate between the two, and gods know we'll never agree on a winner. But just for the record, he can't do practically anythinng. If he could, he would have both erased Lady Death with a gesture, and brought her back with a wave of his hand. Yet, he needed certain means do to both, and while you can say he didn't need to do them, you can't prove that.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Kurohige on Wed May 13, 2015 5:00 pm

sierra117 wrote:I just want to remind you that the fight between Bern and Battler happen inside a game board so they have to obey the rules, and those "misteries" Bern used aren't some random and normal misteries but proper "misteries" like Rokkenjima Incident and its took form of snakes just because it's easy for her opponents and Featherine to watch(the harder the mistery is, the bigger the size of those snake), and to deal with it, Battler also have to use conceptual attack (with took form of his sword) (well, because my vocabularies reach its limit so i don't know how to describe it clearly, but i hopes you guys got the idea), so i don't think that "as long as it is mistery you can bypass E9" can apply to this case
Game Board or not, the whole scene was blown out of proportion. People here (Not saying you) were proclaiming that Bern had infinite DC and durability and the likes of her and Battler could only be harmed with conceptual attacks, which was false. At the time i had not read that part so I couldn't debunk it but now that I read it and discussed it with others on Fuwanovel the scene was distorted beyond belief. It was a simple punch of ridiculous strength that REMINDED Bern of the concept of pain, not a punch imbued with the concept of pain like it was haki or something. That's the point I was trying to make, being inside the game did not change that. Also those are still mysteries, even if it was a greater mystery like the incident it was still something unknown to Battler. It is clear that mysteries are the weakness of Endless 9, it's pure speculation to assume that it must be certain mysteries when that was never touched upon. Her choice of mystery does not change that.

Chef_Banchou wrote:
Its not an obvious weakness. For it to be such a blatant, obvious weakness, don't you think one of his many opponents would have utilized it already, other than just Bern? Do you really think only Bern was ever smart enough to find such a weakness? That would be pretty irritating, seeing as he's fought, and defeated, much more intelligent opponents than Bern. And besides, there is a very high possibility that Battler allowed the mysteries to be able to get past Endless 9, in order for them to kill him. He needed the right inspiration to bring out Ange's powers, after all, and he seemed calm and expectant if the following events, even as he lay there, dying. Hell, he even told her that he knows that she can manifest her powers to bring them back, almost as if he allowed himself to be killed, just for Ange to bring out her powers.

Also, please understand that I don't want to get into arguments where both Battler AND Beyonder are involved, because it could lead to another debate between the two, and gods know we'll never agree on a winner. But just for the record, he can't do practically anythinng. If he could, he would have both erased Lady Death with a gesture, and brought her back with a wave of his hand. Yet, he needed certain means do to both, and while you can say he didn't need to do them, you can't prove that.

Pretty sure Beatrice could have killed him in their fight but chose not to IIRC so that's not a good comparison as she was a genius as well. Also it is obvious for beings like Hitoshura or Beyonder. Even if Bern was not as smart as previous opponents int he series she is the only one who was able to utilize the strategy of using mysteries as an offensive, everyone else used magic or spell, ect. That also makes no sense, why allow the mysteries to bypass if he wanted to die? He would have simply let any of her other attacks do that if that was the case rather than the one with special properties. It's more likely that after the attack bypassed he just stopped fighting back and realized a better solution rather than getting back up to go for a counter strategy, Battler is first and formost a master strategist and can think on the fly. Once Endless 9 failed he just relied on Ange I mean aside from Golden Key Endless 9's his best move, once that failed that was probably the best option for him.

Also I'm not debating on who would win, I'm saying that there was a backwards logic with Beyonder's feats and Battler's. And yes he could, your whole argument boils down to his method of doing it rather than what he did. By your logic First form King Vegeta>Prince Vegeta since King Vegeta blew up planets by waving his hand while Vegeta could blow up a planet using a fully charged galick gun. Their methods don't matter unless they received help. You also fail to realize that Marvel runs on different rules than the When they Cry series as Death is their universe is a concept without form or personality while Death is Marvel is a living conceptual being. Beyonder still killed death using his own power, that's a fact. The method of doing it has no baring in this situation. He brought Death back but needed someone to take it's place, he had to use someone because that's what Death was, he needed to make a new Death, he gave his friend the choice because he cared about him and his friend wanted to anyways. You jump on Beyonder's feat yet when I bring up the fact that Bern had to physically manifest concepts and could not simply attack with said concepts you try to argue that it's the same thing and just how they choose to fight. And can't prove what? It was made quite clear why he used that method for anyone who read the comic: Actually, the Beyonder had limited himself greatly as we all know.

There wasn't any limitations except for the one he himself imposed.

Death was erased, then re-created just as easily ... even under the blanket of his self-imposed limitation.

As for Miss Death ... she fears Beyonder ...

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15472755/B.jpg.html

... just like the Living Tribunal & all the Multiverse:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15472758/B3.jpg.html

Which is why the Living Tribunal didn't dare raise a finger to Beyonder, yet, he disrespected Thanos and attacked him directly.

Beyonder put his power in a cup and brought death back without a gester because he WILLINGLY LIMITED HIS POWER GREATLY. That was th eonly reason and even then he still killed and brought Death back. That alone is msore impressive than anything Battler has done. Also he WOULD know how to bypass Endless 9

Btw, my friends, here's proof that the "enormous amount of energy"

Beyonder used to kill Miss Death,

was nothing more than a Fraction of his power:



lol, a "fraction" ... of his already self imposed limitations. What I do recall is this verbatim: "A lot of my power is in that cup ... Once it is done, I won't have enough power to undo it"

Now is this true? Absolutely Not! (Shooter with the drama) cause afterwards Beyonder did bring back the Concept of Death, basically achieving the impossible, which was ... killing something when the very idea was erased from the Marvelverse.  limited Beyonder defeated the most powerful being in the Marvelverse: ... classic Owen Reece > LT + all reality. Beyonder didn't stomp the LT, cause the LT was shitting in his pants thinking about the Beyonder. Wasn't trying to turn this into Battler vs Beyonder but I am trying to explain the feat with Death, it was done while limited and with  fraction of his power. I'm not just blowing smoke it was all stated and shown on panel, same can't be said for a lot of Battler's feats though.

As for this battle does Htio have anything along the lines of conceptual manipulation or anything that would be deemed as mysterious to Battler? That's what it comes down to.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Kurohige on Wed May 13, 2015 5:47 pm

Ah but I digress, I'm making this go off topic, I'll make a separate thread discussing Endless 9 at a later time. I simply don't see it as being infinite, it require too many assumptions and fan speculation, not to mention that it's inconsistent with the holding's of many other characters with the same ground for their abilities such as GER. Plus this conceptual stuff has never been mentioned as the only way to harm the characters nor get past Endless 9, in fact it's shown and stated in the VN what is needed for such task. I'll make a thread on Fuwanovel and link it here then other fans can weigh in.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Chef_Banchou on Mon May 18, 2015 3:02 pm

Kurohige wrote:
sierra117 wrote:I just want to remind you that the fight between Bern and Battler happen inside a game board so they have to obey the rules, and those "misteries" Bern used aren't some random and normal misteries but proper "misteries" like Rokkenjima Incident and its took form of snakes just because it's easy for her opponents and Featherine to watch(the harder the mistery is, the bigger the size of those snake), and to deal with it, Battler also have to use conceptual attack (with took form of his sword) (well, because my vocabularies reach its limit so i don't know how to describe it clearly, but i hopes you guys got the idea), so i don't think that "as long as it is mistery you can bypass E9" can apply to this case
Game Board or not, the whole scene was blown out of proportion. People here (Not saying you) were proclaiming that Bern had infinite DC and durability and the likes of her and Battler could only be harmed with conceptual attacks, which was false. At the time i had not read that part so I couldn't debunk it but now that I read it and discussed it with others on Fuwanovel the scene was distorted beyond belief. It was a simple punch of ridiculous strength that REMINDED Bern of the concept of pain, not a punch imbued with the concept of pain like it was haki or something. That's the point I was trying to make, being inside the game did not change that. Also those are still mysteries, even if it was a greater mystery like the incident it was still something unknown to Battler. It is clear that mysteries are the weakness of Endless 9, it's pure speculation to assume that it must be certain mysteries when that was never touched upon. Her choice of mystery does not change that.

Chef_Banchou wrote:
Its not an obvious weakness. For it to be such a blatant, obvious weakness, don't you think one of his many opponents would have utilized it already, other than just Bern? Do you really think only Bern was ever smart enough to find such a weakness? That would be pretty irritating, seeing as he's fought, and defeated, much more intelligent opponents than Bern. And besides, there is a very high possibility that Battler allowed the mysteries to be able to get past Endless 9, in order for them to kill him. He needed the right inspiration to bring out Ange's powers, after all, and he seemed calm and expectant if the following events, even as he lay there, dying. Hell, he even told her that he knows that she can manifest her powers to bring them back, almost as if he allowed himself to be killed, just for Ange to bring out her powers.

Also, please understand that I don't want to get into arguments where both Battler AND Beyonder are involved, because it could lead to another debate between the two, and gods know we'll never agree on a winner. But just for the record, he can't do practically anythinng. If he could, he would have both erased Lady Death with a gesture, and brought her back with a wave of his hand. Yet, he needed certain means do to both, and while you can say he didn't need to do them, you can't prove that.

Pretty sure Beatrice could have killed him in their fight but chose not to IIRC so that's not a good comparison as she was a genius as well. Also it is obvious for beings like Hitoshura or Beyonder. Even if Bern was not as smart as previous opponents int he series she is the only one who was able to utilize the strategy of using mysteries as an offensive, everyone else used magic or spell, ect. That also makes no sense, why allow the mysteries to bypass if he wanted to die? He would have simply let any of her other attacks do that if that was the case rather than the one with special properties. It's more likely that after the attack bypassed he just stopped fighting back and realized a better solution rather than getting back up to go for a counter strategy, Battler is first and formost a master strategist and can think on the fly. Once Endless 9 failed he just relied on Ange I mean aside from Golden Key Endless 9's his best move, once that failed that was probably the best option for him.

Also I'm not debating on who would win, I'm saying that there was a backwards logic with Beyonder's feats and Battler's. And yes he could, your whole argument boils down to his method of doing it rather than what he did. By your logic First form King Vegeta>Prince Vegeta since King Vegeta blew up planets by waving his hand while Vegeta could blow up a planet using a fully charged galick gun. Their methods don't matter unless they received help. You also fail to realize that Marvel runs on different rules than the When they Cry series as Death is their universe is a concept without form or personality while Death is Marvel is a living conceptual being. Beyonder still killed death using his own power, that's a fact. The method of doing it has no baring in this situation. He brought Death back but needed someone to take it's place, he had to use someone because that's what Death was, he needed to make a new Death, he gave his friend the choice because he cared about him and his friend wanted to anyways. You jump on Beyonder's feat yet when I bring up the fact that Bern had to physically manifest concepts and could not simply attack with said concepts you try to argue that it's the same thing and just how they choose to fight. And can't prove what? It was made quite clear why he used that method for anyone who read the comic: Actually, the Beyonder had limited himself greatly as we all know.

There wasn't any limitations except for the one he himself imposed.

Death was erased, then re-created just as easily ... even under the blanket of his self-imposed limitation.

As for Miss Death ... she fears Beyonder ...

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15472755/B.jpg.html

... just like the Living Tribunal & all the Multiverse:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15472758/B3.jpg.html

Which is why the Living Tribunal didn't dare raise a finger to Beyonder, yet, he disrespected Thanos and attacked him directly.

Beyonder put his power in a cup and brought death back without a gester because he WILLINGLY LIMITED HIS POWER GREATLY. That was th eonly reason and even then he still killed and brought Death back. That alone is msore impressive than anything Battler has done. Also he WOULD know how to bypass Endless 9

Btw, my friends, here's proof that the "enormous amount of energy"

Beyonder used to kill Miss Death,

was nothing more than a Fraction of his power:



lol, a "fraction" ... of his already self imposed limitations. What I do recall is this verbatim: "A lot of my power is in that cup ... Once it is done, I won't have enough power to undo it"

Now is this true? Absolutely Not! (Shooter with the drama) cause afterwards Beyonder did bring back the Concept of Death, basically achieving the impossible, which was ... killing something when the very idea was erased from the Marvelverse.  limited Beyonder defeated the most powerful being in the Marvelverse: ... classic Owen Reece > LT + all reality. Beyonder didn't stomp the LT, cause the LT was shitting in his pants thinking about the Beyonder. Wasn't trying to turn this into Battler vs Beyonder but I am trying to explain the feat with Death, it was done while limited and with  fraction of his power. I'm not just blowing smoke it was all stated and shown on panel, same can't be said for a lot of Battler's feats though.

As for this battle does Htio have anything along the lines of conceptual manipulation or anything that would be deemed as mysterious to Battler? That's what it comes down to.

You make some good arguments, and I umderstand what your saying, but there are just some things that I think would be better off agreeing to disagree on.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Kurohige on Tue May 19, 2015 12:45 am

KK, so any takers on this debate? So far it is Me, EVA, and Chaosknight(I think) for Hitoshura and Chef Banchou and Trexalfa for Battler. Banchou agrees to disagree so unless there are any takers then Battler loses? Or draw?
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by sierra117 on Tue May 19, 2015 1:10 am

i think this match is draw
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by trexalfa on Tue May 19, 2015 7:49 am

I think that, while Hitoshura does have amazing power, Battler is even with him or even superior if we take into account his more... esoteric powers. And, I repeat, Hitoshura hasn't got a conceptual destruction feat. And anyone claiming that hasn't heard about Occam's Razor, just saying.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Kurohige on Tue May 19, 2015 2:44 pm

trexalfa wrote:I think that, while Hitoshura does have amazing power, Battler is even with him or even superior  if we take into account his more... esoteric powers. And, I repeat, Hitoshura hasn't got a conceptual destruction feat. And anyone claiming that hasn't heard about Occam's Razor, just saying.
Well I think Hitoshura should be equal in power, Battler best showing in terms of power was punching Bern with enough strength to remind her of the concept of pain, Bern herself tanked several big bangs with no real damage. Other than that I don't think Hito needs conceptual based attacks to harm Battler. If he could truly ignore concepts like durability,pain ect. then he wouldn't need Endless 9 to protect him from Bern's magical assault that was multiversal. Also it took all of Bernkastel's strength to resist Lambda's black hole and her stats were not that much inferior to Battler,hell Battler was even in awe of their fight when he saw it


In addition when he was fatally wounded with the mysteries he would have ignored the damage itself and prevented his death. That being said I'm not seeing how Battler is not getting blown to bits here.

And Occam's Razor: http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.html

What about it?
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by trexalfa on Tue May 19, 2015 2:50 pm

Kurohige wrote:
trexalfa wrote:I think that, while Hitoshura does have amazing power, Battler is even with him or even superior  if we take into account his more... esoteric powers. And, I repeat, Hitoshura hasn't got a conceptual destruction feat. And anyone claiming that hasn't heard about Occam's Razor, just saying.
Well I think Hitoshura should be equal in power, Battler best showing in terms of power was punching Bern with enough strength to remind her of the concept of pain, Bern herself tanked several big bangs with no real damage. Other than that I don't think Hito needs conceptual based attacks to harm Battler. If he could truly ignore concepts like durability,pain ect. then he wouldn't need Endless 9 to protect him from Bern's magical assault that was multiversal. Also it took all of Bernkastel's strength to resist Lambda's black hole and her stats were not that much inferior to Battler,hell Battler was even in awe of their fight when he saw it


In addition when he was fatally wounded with the mysteries he would have ignored the damage itself and prevented his death. That being said I'm not seeing how Battler is not getting blown to bits here.

And Occam's Razor: http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.html

What about it?

My argument wasn't that Hitoshura needs conceptual powers to harm Battler. My argument is that, while the Demi Fiend lacks conceptual attacks, Battler has them. Conceptual powers hax enough to make a huge difference. And yes, apart from this, Battler and the Demi Fiends are... pretty evenly matched, if you ask me.

My point about Occam's Razor is that having "he killed the multiversal being who was responsible for the creation of new worlds" to "completely destroyed the concept of creation" is a rather huge leap in logic. And that's the argument some debaters were using here, and I'm completely against it.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Akronawol17 on Wed May 20, 2015 7:39 am

trexalfa wrote:I think that, while Hitoshura does have amazing power, Battler is even with him or even superior  if we take into account his more... esoteric powers. And, I repeat, Hitoshura hasn't got a conceptual destruction feat. And anyone claiming that hasn't heard about Occam's Razor, just saying.
he also survived in a nonexistent void, killed two abstracts of death, defeated the fates, can pierce any defense (barring reflect) via Pierce, and literally no-sold nonexistence. If he can't destroy concepts, he can at the very least ignore and bypass them. I still personally believe he did destroy both the concept of time and creation, but that's just me.

Also, his DC and durability are much higher then Battler's he defeated a being that could destroy and recreate millions of universes just as a side-effect of existing.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by trexalfa on Wed May 20, 2015 7:52 am

Akronawol17 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:I think that, while Hitoshura does have amazing power, Battler is even with him or even superior  if we take into account his more... esoteric powers. And, I repeat, Hitoshura hasn't got a conceptual destruction feat. And anyone claiming that hasn't heard about Occam's Razor, just saying.
he also survived in a nonexistent void, killed two abstracts of death, defeated the fates, can pierce any defense (barring reflect) via Pierce, and literally no-sold nonexistence. If he can't destroy concepts, he can at the very least ignore and bypass them. I still personally believe he did destroy both the concept of time and creation, but that's just me.

Also, his DC and durability are much higher then Battler's he defeated a being that could destroy and recreate millions of universes just as a side-effect of existing.

Surviving the void- It's not some special snowflake. That just means he tanked the collapse of the Amala.

And why would he be able to bypass concepts? Abstracts get destroyed by people who can't bypass concepts all the time in settings like Marvel or DC (their abstracts don't behave like conceptual beings at all).

The only way to even begin to prove that would be picking up the original (japanese) script and showing me where does "概念" (concept) even get mentioned. If this does not appear, the argument of "Hitoshura destroyed the concepts of time and creation" is just an argument from belief, plus a huge leap in logic.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Lordlloyd7 on Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:48 pm

Golden truth and E9 should be enough tbh. Not to mention his immortality in the world of Enzh. Which is like higher than the meta-room or the golden land. Maybe even the City of Books. What is Hitoshuras physiology btw?
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Akronawol17 on Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:36 am

I don't think Hitoshura can die. He wasn't even killed after the concepts of time and creation were destroyed. Battled is impressive, but I don't think he can top that.

As for his physiology, what do you mean? Like his species? He's technically a demon in the True Demon Ending.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Lordlloyd7 on Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:53 pm

Not his species per se. And just about all umineko chars live outside both time and space. So that's not to impressive here. He's even gone beyond that via the meta room, the golden land and the city of books.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by MeruemSama on Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:40 pm

A low to mid tier in Umineko is already outside space and time
In power i think they are both at the same category
However in hax i give it to Battler but it will be no stomp
if battler wins it will be with great difficulty.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Akronawol17 on Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:13 am

Living outside of time and space isn't as impressive as surviving with the concepts of time, space and creation completely erased. He also tanked the collapse of billions of multiverses, including a few infinite universes, without a scratch. His durability far exceeds anything I've ever seen from Battler.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by trexalfa on Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:44 am

Akronawol17 wrote:Living outside of time and space isn't as impressive as surviving with the concepts of time, space and creation completely erased. He also tanked the collapse of billions of multiverses, including a few infinite universes, without a scratch. His durability far exceeds anything I've ever seen from Battler.

Woah, any actual basis to that?
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

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