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Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Chef_Banchou on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:24 pm

Battler Ushiromiya:


VS


Hitoshura:


No CIS/PIS, no BFR, no speed equalized, they 1000 feet apart, win by K.O or death.


Round 1: composite Hitoshura, no TDE.

Round 2: TDE Hitoshura.


Fight takes place in Frieza's ship, with Frieza locked inside with them.


Who wins?
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Othus on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:28 pm

frieza loses lol
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Falbium_Asmodeus on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:35 pm

Poor Frieza lol!
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by EG_Sage on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:38 pm

Battler is just like Reinhard you need conceptual attacks to hurt them,Can't remember if Hitoshura has any mmmmmmmmmmmm,i'm gonna wait for some others to comment,oh and RIP Frieza and his ship
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Akronawol17 on Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:26 am

Round 1: probably Battler, but not in a stomp.

Round 2: Hitoshura. He can attack on a conceptual level as well, and has better DC feats. Also, Pierce is a thing.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by sierra117 on Sat May 09, 2015 12:12 pm

can Hitoshura break through Endless Nine?
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by EVA_01 on Sat May 09, 2015 1:17 pm

sierra117 wrote:can Hitoshura break through Endless Nine?

Can Endless Nine fend off attacks that can erase the concept of creation?
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by trexalfa on Sat May 09, 2015 2:00 pm

Hell, a though one. I say, if we powerscale from Beato, I'd say Battler wins this. Hitoshura, for all his badassery, can't do anything to someone who ignores concepts such as durability.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by EVA_01 on Sat May 09, 2015 2:03 pm

trexalfa wrote:Hell, a though one. I say, if we powerscale from Beato, I'd say Battler wins this. Hitoshura, for all his badassery, can't do anything to someone who ignores concepts such as durability.

How can Battler kill Hito when the latter can exist in non-existence? I say Battler takes it in round one, round two Hito straight up stomps him, I think even Chef could agree to a certain degree on that one.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by trexalfa on Sat May 09, 2015 2:07 pm

EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:Hell, a though one. I say, if we powerscale from Beato, I'd say Battler wins this. Hitoshura, for all his badassery, can't do anything to someone who ignores concepts such as durability.

How can Battler kill Hito when the latter can exist in non-existence? I say Battler takes it in round one, round two Hito straight up stomps him, I think even Chef could agree to a certain degree on that one.

What I said lied in using powerscalling with Beato for Battler (which is pretty logical), he should be high end multiversal by using it. What do you mean by existing in non-existence?

All of this is assuming Battler doesn't go "lol Game Master" and kills the Demi Fiend by what is esentially author fiat.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by EVA_01 on Sat May 09, 2015 2:14 pm

trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:Hell, a though one. I say, if we powerscale from Beato, I'd say Battler wins this. Hitoshura, for all his badassery, can't do anything to someone who ignores concepts such as durability.

How can Battler kill Hito when the latter can exist in non-existence? I say Battler takes it in round one, round two Hito straight up stomps him, I think even Chef could agree to a certain degree on that one.

What I said lied in using powerscalling with Beato for Battler (which is pretty logical), he should be high end multiversal by using it. What do you mean by existing in non-existence?

All of this is assuming Battler doesn't go "lol Game Master" and kills the Demi Fiend by what is esentially author fiat.

Oh...you really haven't played SMT III huh?

Hitoshura erased Kagutsuchi, the embodiment of infinite universes, the concept of creation itself and avatar of the Great Will.

Hitoshura erased the concept of creation, tanked the collapse of infinite universes, Amala is now in a state of dimensionless non-existence, right after that he proceeds to fight Lucifer, then he beats him, then prepares to fight The Great Will, then the game ends.

"lol Game Master" won't help him since he has to actually create the board.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by trexalfa on Sat May 09, 2015 2:21 pm

EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:Hell, a though one. I say, if we powerscale from Beato, I'd say Battler wins this. Hitoshura, for all his badassery, can't do anything to someone who ignores concepts such as durability.

How can Battler kill Hito when the latter can exist in non-existence? I say Battler takes it in round one, round two Hito straight up stomps him, I think even Chef could agree to a certain degree on that one.

What I said lied in using powerscalling with Beato for Battler (which is pretty logical), he should be high end multiversal by using it. What do you mean by existing in non-existence?

All of this is assuming Battler doesn't go "lol Game Master" and kills the Demi Fiend by what is esentially author fiat.

Oh...you really haven't played SMT III huh?

Hitoshura erased Kagutsuchi, the embodiment of infinite universes, the concept of creation itself and avatar of the Great Will.

Hitoshura erased the concept of creation, tanked the collapse of infinite universes, Amala is now in a state of dimensionless non-existence, right after that he proceeds to fight Lucifer, then he beats him, then prepares to fight The Great Will, then the game ends.

"lol Game Master" won't help him since he has to actually create the board.

Actually, Nocturne is one of my favourite games of all time.

Second, Kagutsuchi is not what you seem to be thinking. It's an avatar of the Great Will that enforces Conception upon the Amala Universe, that is, a cycle of creation and destruction that takes place in billions of different universes. But Kagutsuchi is not the concept of creation. Hitoshura stopped all the Conceptions going on and went to defeat the Great Will. That dimensional non-existence... is not some special snowflake. That just means there's only a void instead of a multiverse, and I'll have to re-watch the ending, cause I don't remember the Amala Universe being destroyed, but well.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by EVA_01 on Sat May 09, 2015 2:28 pm

trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:Hell, a though one. I say, if we powerscale from Beato, I'd say Battler wins this. Hitoshura, for all his badassery, can't do anything to someone who ignores concepts such as durability.

How can Battler kill Hito when the latter can exist in non-existence? I say Battler takes it in round one, round two Hito straight up stomps him, I think even Chef could agree to a certain degree on that one.

What I said lied in using powerscalling with Beato for Battler (which is pretty logical), he should be high end multiversal by using it. What do you mean by existing in non-existence?

All of this is assuming Battler doesn't go "lol Game Master" and kills the Demi Fiend by what is esentially author fiat.

Oh...you really haven't played SMT III huh?

Hitoshura erased Kagutsuchi, the embodiment of infinite universes, the concept of creation itself and avatar of the Great Will.

Hitoshura erased the concept of creation, tanked the collapse of infinite universes, Amala is now in a state of dimensionless non-existence, right after that he proceeds to fight Lucifer, then he beats him, then prepares to fight The Great Will, then the game ends.

"lol Game Master" won't help him since he has to actually create the board.

Actually, Nocturne is one of my favourite games of all time.

Second, Kagutsuchi is not what you seem to be thinking. It's an avatar of the Great Will that enforces Conception upon the Amala Universe, that is, a cycle of creation and destruction that takes place in billions of different universes. But Kagutsuchi is not the concept of creation. Hitoshura stopped all the Conceptions going on and went to defeat the Great Will. That dimensional non-existence... is not some special snowflake. That just means there's only a void instead of a multiverse, and I'll have to re-watch the ending, cause I don't remember the Amala Universe being destroyed, but well.

Then my second guess was right, it appears you have forgotten some tiny text details.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNB2CYz2jDQ

@1:43 "Creation is no longer possible", "

@2:28 "And now, time has met her death"

The following is proof that Amala is infinite, if you played "Shin Megami Tensei if...." and Devil Summoner Raidou Kuzunoha I wouldn't need to tell you that, but I haven't found the bits of text I want from either on youtube, luckily, I found it from the original Kyuuraku Megami Tensei II, a remake of the original Megaten II

Amala if infinite:
Alright found it. It took some digging but I managed to find.
The game is old and has no translation, I can read Japanese Hiragana and Katakana quite well myself, but I’ll have to let you translate it for yourself so as to eliminate doubt.
These links will help, read before you watch the video, there’s a Hiragana character sheet in wikipedia, read the words from putting the characters together:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugen

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=universe+in+japanese

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana

Mugen no Uchuu = Infinite universes

Here’s the video, look at 6:31, second line, and translate from the sheet and definitions provided:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z17ytF-Roas
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by trexalfa on Sat May 09, 2015 2:39 pm

EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:Hell, a though one. I say, if we powerscale from Beato, I'd say Battler wins this. Hitoshura, for all his badassery, can't do anything to someone who ignores concepts such as durability.

How can Battler kill Hito when the latter can exist in non-existence? I say Battler takes it in round one, round two Hito straight up stomps him, I think even Chef could agree to a certain degree on that one.

What I said lied in using powerscalling with Beato for Battler (which is pretty logical), he should be high end multiversal by using it. What do you mean by existing in non-existence?

All of this is assuming Battler doesn't go "lol Game Master" and kills the Demi Fiend by what is esentially author fiat.

Oh...you really haven't played SMT III huh?

Hitoshura erased Kagutsuchi, the embodiment of infinite universes, the concept of creation itself and avatar of the Great Will.

Hitoshura erased the concept of creation, tanked the collapse of infinite universes, Amala is now in a state of dimensionless non-existence, right after that he proceeds to fight Lucifer, then he beats him, then prepares to fight The Great Will, then the game ends.

"lol Game Master" won't help him since he has to actually create the board.

Actually, Nocturne is one of my favourite games of all time.

Second, Kagutsuchi is not what you seem to be thinking. It's an avatar of the Great Will that enforces Conception upon the Amala Universe, that is, a cycle of creation and destruction that takes place in billions of different universes. But Kagutsuchi is not the concept of creation. Hitoshura stopped all the Conceptions going on and went to defeat the Great Will. That dimensional non-existence... is not some special snowflake. That just means there's only a void instead of a multiverse, and I'll have to re-watch the ending, cause I don't remember the Amala Universe being destroyed, but well.

Then my second guess was right, it appears you have forgotten some tiny text details.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNB2CYz2jDQ

@1:43 "Creation is no longer possible", "

@2:28 "And now, time has met her death"

The following is proof that Amala is infinite, if you played "Shin Megami Tensei if...." and Devil Summoner Raidou Kuzunoha I wouldn't need to tell you that, but I haven't found the bits of text I want from either on youtube, luckily, I found it from the original Kyuuraku Megami Tensei II, a remake of the original Megaten II

Amala if infinite:
Alright found it. It took some digging but I managed to find.
The game is old and has no translation, I can read Japanese Hiragana and Katakana quite well myself, but I’ll have to let you translate it for yourself so as to eliminate doubt.
These links will help, read before you watch the video, there’s a Hiragana character sheet in wikipedia, read the words from putting the characters together:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugen

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=universe+in+japanese

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana

Mugen no Uchuu = Infinite universes

Here’s the video, look at 6:31, second line, and translate from the sheet and definitions provided:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z17ytF-Roas

I wasn't doubting the Amala Universe was infinite.

Alright so, I watched the ending again. "Creation is no longer possible" doesn't imply any kind of conceptual destruction, it's just that the guy who creates the universe after Conception, Kagutsuchi, is gone. And yes, the flow of time has stopped, though the ending is vague as hell as to where did this take effect.

Still not seeing conceptual stuff.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by EVA_01 on Sat May 09, 2015 2:49 pm

trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:Hell, a though one. I say, if we powerscale from Beato, I'd say Battler wins this. Hitoshura, for all his badassery, can't do anything to someone who ignores concepts such as durability.

How can Battler kill Hito when the latter can exist in non-existence? I say Battler takes it in round one, round two Hito straight up stomps him, I think even Chef could agree to a certain degree on that one.

What I said lied in using powerscalling with Beato for Battler (which is pretty logical), he should be high end multiversal by using it. What do you mean by existing in non-existence?

All of this is assuming Battler doesn't go "lol Game Master" and kills the Demi Fiend by what is esentially author fiat.

Oh...you really haven't played SMT III huh?

Hitoshura erased Kagutsuchi, the embodiment of infinite universes, the concept of creation itself and avatar of the Great Will.

Hitoshura erased the concept of creation, tanked the collapse of infinite universes, Amala is now in a state of dimensionless non-existence, right after that he proceeds to fight Lucifer, then he beats him, then prepares to fight The Great Will, then the game ends.

"lol Game Master" won't help him since he has to actually create the board.

Actually, Nocturne is one of my favourite games of all time.

Second, Kagutsuchi is not what you seem to be thinking. It's an avatar of the Great Will that enforces Conception upon the Amala Universe, that is, a cycle of creation and destruction that takes place in billions of different universes. But Kagutsuchi is not the concept of creation. Hitoshura stopped all the Conceptions going on and went to defeat the Great Will. That dimensional non-existence... is not some special snowflake. That just means there's only a void instead of a multiverse, and I'll have to re-watch the ending, cause I don't remember the Amala Universe being destroyed, but well.

Then my second guess was right, it appears you have forgotten some tiny text details.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNB2CYz2jDQ

@1:43 "Creation is no longer possible", "

@2:28 "And now, time has met her death"

The following is proof that Amala is infinite, if you played "Shin Megami Tensei if...." and Devil Summoner Raidou Kuzunoha I wouldn't need to tell you that, but I haven't found the bits of text I want from either on youtube, luckily, I found it from the original Kyuuraku Megami Tensei II, a remake of the original Megaten II

Amala if infinite:
Alright found it. It took some digging but I managed to find.
The game is old and has no translation, I can read Japanese Hiragana and Katakana quite well myself, but I’ll have to let you translate it for yourself so as to eliminate doubt.
These links will help, read before you watch the video, there’s a Hiragana character sheet in wikipedia, read the words from putting the characters together:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugen

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=universe+in+japanese

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana

Mugen no Uchuu = Infinite universes

Here’s the video, look at 6:31, second line, and translate from the sheet and definitions provided:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z17ytF-Roas

I wasn't doubting the Amala Universe was infinite.

Alright so, I watched the ending again. "Creation is no longer possible" doesn't imply any kind of conceptual destruction, it's just that the guy who creates the universe after Conception, Kagutsuchi, is gone. And yes, the flow of time has stopped, though the ending is vague as hell as to where did this take effect.

Still not seeing conceptual stuff.

And that guy, Kagutsuchi, is the embodiment of all universes. It took effect in Amala, where else?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBNv7N-_Ndo

6:40

More videos to come.

Oh, and shall I also post evidence that in Megaten terms "world"="universe"? Or do you know that already?
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by trexalfa on Sat May 09, 2015 3:13 pm

EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:
EVA_01 wrote:
trexalfa wrote:Hell, a though one. I say, if we powerscale from Beato, I'd say Battler wins this. Hitoshura, for all his badassery, can't do anything to someone who ignores concepts such as durability.

How can Battler kill Hito when the latter can exist in non-existence? I say Battler takes it in round one, round two Hito straight up stomps him, I think even Chef could agree to a certain degree on that one.

What I said lied in using powerscalling with Beato for Battler (which is pretty logical), he should be high end multiversal by using it. What do you mean by existing in non-existence?

All of this is assuming Battler doesn't go "lol Game Master" and kills the Demi Fiend by what is esentially author fiat.

Oh...you really haven't played SMT III huh?

Hitoshura erased Kagutsuchi, the embodiment of infinite universes, the concept of creation itself and avatar of the Great Will.

Hitoshura erased the concept of creation, tanked the collapse of infinite universes, Amala is now in a state of dimensionless non-existence, right after that he proceeds to fight Lucifer, then he beats him, then prepares to fight The Great Will, then the game ends.

"lol Game Master" won't help him since he has to actually create the board.

Actually, Nocturne is one of my favourite games of all time.

Second, Kagutsuchi is not what you seem to be thinking. It's an avatar of the Great Will that enforces Conception upon the Amala Universe, that is, a cycle of creation and destruction that takes place in billions of different universes. But Kagutsuchi is not the concept of creation. Hitoshura stopped all the Conceptions going on and went to defeat the Great Will. That dimensional non-existence... is not some special snowflake. That just means there's only a void instead of a multiverse, and I'll have to re-watch the ending, cause I don't remember the Amala Universe being destroyed, but well.

Then my second guess was right, it appears you have forgotten some tiny text details.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNB2CYz2jDQ

@1:43 "Creation is no longer possible", "

@2:28 "And now, time has met her death"

The following is proof that Amala is infinite, if you played "Shin Megami Tensei if...." and Devil Summoner Raidou Kuzunoha I wouldn't need to tell you that, but I haven't found the bits of text I want from either on youtube, luckily, I found it from the original Kyuuraku Megami Tensei II, a remake of the original Megaten II

Amala if infinite:
Alright found it. It took some digging but I managed to find.
The game is old and has no translation, I can read Japanese Hiragana and Katakana quite well myself, but I’ll have to let you translate it for yourself so as to eliminate doubt.
These links will help, read before you watch the video, there’s a Hiragana character sheet in wikipedia, read the words from putting the characters together:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugen

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=universe+in+japanese

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana

Mugen no Uchuu = Infinite universes

Here’s the video, look at 6:31, second line, and translate from the sheet and definitions provided:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z17ytF-Roas

I wasn't doubting the Amala Universe was infinite.

Alright so, I watched the ending again. "Creation is no longer possible" doesn't imply any kind of conceptual destruction, it's just that the guy who creates the universe after Conception, Kagutsuchi, is gone. And yes, the flow of time has stopped, though the ending is vague as hell as to where did this take effect.

Still not seeing conceptual stuff.

And that guy, Kagutsuchi, is the embodiment of all universes. It took effect in Amala, where else?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBNv7N-_Ndo

6:40

More videos to come.

Oh, and shall I also post evidence that in Megaten terms "world"="universe"? Or do you know that already?

No he's not. He's just a system that the Great Will has imposed upon the Amala Universe. He performs the Conception.

That's a granted.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by GeneralVan on Sat May 09, 2015 6:34 pm

Frieza goes God-Form and solos both with ease. Nothing in Umineko or SMT is on par with God-Form Frieza.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Kurohige on Sun May 10, 2015 12:12 am

Can someone list the other guy's best destructive feat? He doesn't need conceptual attacks to get past Battler nor Endless 9' PIS so please don't give me any BS on how it doens't matter, I was actually able to read the VN thanks to Fuwnovel. That feat and most feats I was told in general were blown way out of proportion in that battle with Bern... and huge ass NLF.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sun May 10, 2015 12:51 am

Kurohige wrote:Can someone list the other guy's best destructive feat? He doesn't need conceptual attacks to get past Battler nor Endless 9' PIS so please don't give me any BS on how it doens't matter, I was actually able to read the VN thanks to Fuwnovel. That feat and most feats I was told in general were blown way out of proportion in that battle with Bern... and huge ass NLF.

Yes, you do need conceptual attacks to bypass Endless 9. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't true. Its not bullshit, and its not PIS, its just his power.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Kurohige on Sun May 10, 2015 1:28 am

No it's not, you blew the whole thing out of proportion. It's funny and sad that you have to resort to me not liking something as an excuse for me not agreeing or debunking it. That being said i do like the When they cry series, I would have got into the series sooner had I known where to get a hold of it years back when I first watched Higarashi. Still, fact is, regardless of if I like it or not is irrelevant, just like you saying you need conceptual attacks just because.

For one, unlike Ange's, Battler's Endless 9 has a fatal weakness, it can do nothing against Mysteries. Pretty sure someone like Hitoshura assuming he is on a comparable level could easily replicate what Bern did and kill him.

Second, saying Battler's Endless 9 would resist any high level RW is a huge ass NLF. The best scaling it has is that Featherine said even her probably couldn't interfere when he used it.
Umineko is retardedly strong, but needing conceptual level attacks to beat them? No.

Also, this whole "concept concept" stuff is a mess that you're distorting. When Battler was starting to get hits in on Bern, she was REMINDED of the "concept" of pain. Here concept is just a synonym for "significance/meaning", she spent so long being unharmed that she didn't even remember what it was like. And somehow you are twisting that into "lolBattler attacked with an attack imbued with the concept of Pain ! If you don't manipulate muh conceptz you can't do it !". Calm down dude, it was just a punch, a retardedly powerful punch, but a punch nonetheless.

Fact is Endless 9's highest feat was no selling countless mutliversal attacks, but other than not there is nothing to say they need conceptual level attacks, now Golden truth could destroy one on a conceptual level yes, but physical attacks have an effect on him and Endless 9. If we went by your logic GER would be infinite and not restricted to universal.

I digress show me via quote or screenshot of needing conceptual attacks to bypass Endless 9 and you may have a argument better than they one Reikai used to spew out back in the day.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sun May 10, 2015 1:43 am

Kurohige wrote:No it's not, you blew the whole thing out of proportion. It's funny and sad that you have to resort to me not liking something as an excuse for me not agreeing or debunking it. That being said i do like the When they cry series, I would have got into the series sooner had I known where to get a hold of it years back when I first watched Higarashi. Still, fact is, regardless of if I like it or not is irrelevant, just like you saying you need conceptual attacks just because.

For one, unlike Ange's, Battler's Endless 9 has a fatal weakness, it can do nothing against Mysteries. Pretty sure someone like Hitoshura assuming he is on a comparable level could easily replicate what Bern did and kill him.

Second, saying Battler's Endless 9 would resist any high level RW is a huge ass NLF. The best scaling it has is that Featherine said even her probably couldn't interfere when he used it.
Umineko is retardedly strong, but needing conceptual level attacks to beat them? No.

Also, this whole "concept concept" stuff is a mess that you're distorting. When Battler was starting to get hits in on Bern, she was REMINDED of the "concept" of pain. Here concept is just a synonym for "significance/meaning", she spent so long being unharmed that she didn't even remember what it was like. And somehow you are twisting that into "lolBattler attacked with an attack imbued with the concept of Pain ! If you don't manipulate muh conceptz you can't do it !". Calm down dude, it was just a punch, a retardedly powerful punch, but a punch nonetheless.

Fact is Endless 9's highest feat was no selling countless mutliversal attacks, but other than not there is nothing to say they need conceptual level attacks, now Golden truth could destroy one on a conceptual level yes, but physical attacks have an effect on him and Endless 9. If we went by your logic GER would be infinite and not restricted to universal.

I digress show me via quote or screenshot of needing conceptual attacks to bypass Endless 9 and you may have a argument better than they one Reikai used to spew out back in the day.

Well, mysteries are concepts, so how does that disprove it? You can't exactly pick up "mystery" and hit someone with it. Bern manifested various mysteries from different universes and made them into the form of serpents. They were quite conceptual. Though, admittedly, I can't think of any other instances...however, can you, likewise, name anything that has ever bypassed Endless 9, other than conceptual attacks?
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Kurohige on Sun May 10, 2015 1:56 am

Anything can be a mystery as long as you don't know what it is, which is exactly what happened. She could have made those serpents from mahogany wood for all Battler knew and he could not do anything because to him they were regular serpents made from flesh and blood. Bern also made the mysteries into a tangible form, she did not attacks Battler with.. mystery or something like that, even though she can manipulate concepts she can't just attack with them raw, she needs to manifest it into something. So unless she attacked him with the concept of a serpent then it's not a concpetual level attack she simply took a concept unknown to Battler, changed into something recognizable and attacked. Battler isn't omniscient, it's not hard to attack or obtain something unknown to him despite being a genius in his own right, especially when dealing with other fictional characters and their own powers and abilities.

And yes, just a blast of unkown properties, or something stronger than what he has demonstrated to be able to block with Endless 9, the latter of which is valid since it would be NLF otherwise like GER since it's supposedly infinite, Nasuverse Gaia and Alaya being able to power themselves up to match any threat, Hulk (Marvel) and Lung (Worm) being able to scale infinitely would all be accepted since they all have the same basis to back them up.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sun May 10, 2015 2:07 am

Kurohige wrote:Anything can be a mystery as long as you don't know what it is, which is exactly what happened. She could have made those serpents from mahogany wood for all Battler knew and he could not do anything because to him they were regular serpents made from flesh and blood. Bern also made the mysteries into a tangible form, she did not attacks Battler with.. mystery or something like that, even though she can manipulate concepts she can't just attack with them raw, she needs to manifest it into something. So unless she attacked him with the concept of a serpent then it's not a concpetual level attack she simply took a concept unknown to Battler, changed into something recognizable and attacked. Battler isn't omniscient, it's not hard to attack or obtain something unknown to him despite being a genius in his own right, especially when dealing with other fictional characters and their own powers and abilities.  

And yes, just a blast of unkown properties, or something stronger than what he has demonstrated to be able to block with Endless 9, the latter of which is valid since it would be NLF otherwise like GER since it's supposedly infinite, Nasuverse Gaia and Alaya being able to power themselves up to match any threat, Hulk (Marvel) and Lung (Worm) being able to scale infinitely would all be accepted since they all have the same basis to back them up.

Yes she did, in fact, attack him with mysteries. They weren't actual, living snakes. The snakes were just the forms she decided to put the mysteries into. Also, to my knowledge, there has never been an attack shown in Umineko that has outright bypassed E9, other than conceptual attacks. Don't get me wrong, there might very well be a limit to how much raw power E9 can take, but its never been proven, so you can't just assume that.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Kurohige on Sun May 10, 2015 3:53 am

Okay so by that logic Golden Experience doesn't actually turn objects it touches into snakes, bugs, or any other liferform but rather the concept of life given the form of a snake, ladybug or whatever, and when he punches someone and overflows them with life energy he is in fact attacking them with the concept of life? lol. But seriously, she still made them take a tangible form, had it been a true concept it would have no form or logic behind it, it would just be.. an attack, it would appear the same as telepathy had that been the case, there would be no need to make them take form. She took a concept of her choice, turned it into some serpents and used them as attacks, because the snakes themselves were made up of random concepts unknown to Battler he could not defend against it. Basically it would be like if Majin Buu turned Vegito into candy and then Vegito attacked Battler, he would only see a hostile piece of candy but ti would be a mystery to him of what it actually is thus Endless 9 could not defend against it, nevertheless I'm not saying Vegito could hurt Battler, but I'm saying but the rules of Endless 9 the fact that Battler would not know about the candy beam's ability would mean he could not defend against an attack from a candified Vegito. Bern did not and would not even need to use the concept alone, she just needed to manipulate it into a different unknown form.

And that's not how limits work, what you described is borderline no limits fallacy, just because character X did not show a limit on how much he could take does not mean he can take an infinite amount. That's like the old One Piece arguments that because Luffy was made of rubber and the manga stated he was "immune" to blunt damage because of it that Luffy could somehow take and infinite amount of blunt damage which started ridiculous threads like World War Hulk vs Luffy or Goku vs Luffy(Ki restricted), and even Gold Saints Vs Luffy. Or let's not forget the days of Naruto and the amatarasu NLF hype or sharingan genjutus ect. The way it works it that a character can only use their highest shown capacity as a threshold for a feat, just because it was not shown to have a limit does not mean there is no limit. Now for all intent and purposes it very well could be infinite, but it is not proven and for the sake of debate we use the highest shown feat as an outliner to make it fair and to avoid statement debating. GER was never proven to have a limit, in fact it was considered infinite, but it's widely accepted here that it clocks in at universal. Go figure.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sun May 10, 2015 4:43 am

Kurohige wrote:Okay so by that logic Golden Experience doesn't actually turn objects it touches into snakes, bugs, or any other liferform but rather the concept of life given the form of a snake, ladybug or whatever, and when he punches someone and overflows them with life energy he is in fact attacking them with the concept of life? lol. But seriously, she still made them take a tangible form, had it been a true concept it would have no form or logic behind it, it would just be.. an attack, it would appear the same as telepathy had that been the case, there would be no need to make them take form. She took a concept of her choice, turned it into some serpents and used them as attacks, because the snakes themselves were made up of random concepts unknown to Battler he could not defend against it. Basically it would be like if Majin Buu turned Vegito into candy and then Vegito attacked Battler, he would only see a hostile piece of candy but ti would be a mystery to him of what it actually is thus Endless 9 could not defend against it, nevertheless I'm not saying Vegito could hurt Battler, but I'm saying but the rules of Endless 9 the fact that Battler would not know about the candy beam's ability would mean he could not defend against an attack from a candified Vegito. Bern did not and would not even need to use the concept alone, she just needed to manipulate it into a different unknown form.

And that's not how limits work, what you described is borderline no limits fallacy, just because character X did not show a limit on how much he could take does not mean he can take an infinite amount. That's like the old One Piece arguments that because Luffy was made of rubber and the manga stated he was "immune" to blunt damage because of it that Luffy could somehow take and infinite amount of blunt damage which started ridiculous threads like World War Hulk vs Luffy or Goku vs Luffy(Ki restricted), and even Gold Saints Vs Luffy. Or let's not forget the days of Naruto and the amatarasu NLF hype or sharingan genjutus ect. The way it works it that a character can only use their highest shown capacity as a threshold for a feat, just because it was not shown to have a limit does not mean there is no limit. Now for all intent and purposes it very well could be infinite, but it is not proven and for the sake of debate we use the highest shown feat as an outliner to make it fair and to avoid statement debating. GER was never proven to have a limit, in fact it was considered infinite, but it's widely accepted here that it clocks in at universal. Go figure.

Well, they are mysteries in the manifested form of a snake...what would you call that? They were called both serpents and mysteries multiple times during the fight, they aren't one or the other, their both; mysteries in the form of snakes. A mystery is a concept, that's a fact. I'm not comparing it to other powers, all I'm saying is that the snakes were stated to be literal mysteries, formed into snakes. If I'm not mistaken, Umineko characters fight with physical manifestations of concepts quite a few times, so why act like the concept has to be formless to be legit?

Also, I know. That's what I meant. I just wanted to point out how, due to lack of proof for either argument, neither of us can say for sure. However, his magical ablility is to make everything he does with his powers effectively endless/limitless, so there is plenty of room to argue that E9 is infinite. We just can't say it's 100% gurenteed.
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Re: Battler Ushiromiya vs Hitoshura

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