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Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:27 pm

Beyonder has limits though.
Saying he doesn't is NLF.
If he had no limits then MM wouldn't have happened yeah he won and all but it wouldn't have been a fight.
LT didn't cower in fear of Beyonder he did when MM came though.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:28 pm

And if Beyonder is truly infinite which= limitless then this is a tie.
Just because you can attack a concept doesn't mean concept>Infinity they still are infinity.
So a concept attack might not mean anything.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:27 pm

YES, Gio Gio you get it! It is a tie! Which is what I have been trying to explain for pages now. Battler could also be considered NLF if you want to lump that on Beyonder though. Beyonder is above LT pre retcon and even if he did not cower in fear Beyonder still beat MM. My point is that everytihng Battler can do Beyonder can as well, if you cry NLF for Beyonder then you almsot ahve to shout NLF for Battler. See what I mean? It's the same thing with Demonbane vs Mxy or TOAA or whatever, it HAS to be a tie at some point. Otherwise we go into NLF territory.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Akronawol17 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:38 pm

Beyonder cannot boost anything infinitely. If he could, he wouldn't have been exhausted after killing Lady Death (plus he needed help bringing her back), and MM would've been stomped by him.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:28 pm

Yes he can, he did not need help bringing death back, but in order to do so he needed to kill a friend to take it's place

After all he himself says the concept of someone turning himself to death is not really a good thing.


"Some sentinent were willing.. worse .. to become death "

Dave was Beyonder's friend, so Beyonder allowed him to have a choice (willing) but this had No bearing on Beyonder being able to kill him or not, which is what brings back the Concept of Death ... Killing something alive. (Dave)

This is because Nothing could Die!

Even the most powerful being = Owen > LT, could not destroy a flower:


As for Molecule man, he literally blasted Beyonder with likely one of his strongest attacks and Beyonder shrugged it off. There is not really anytihng he is incapable of, LT itself did not want to mess with him. The Only other time Beyonder really was tired or bested was when Doom was able to take his powers in Secret wars 2 where he purposely depowered himself.
This is how Thanos with HOTU (Who is below Beyonder) talked to LT

Also, haven't you noticed how the word omniverse was never mentioned in the entire Secret Wars story arc... But key words like "all" and "entirety" are mentioned every 2 panels.

Uatu begging Owen to stop Beyonder from "Undoing >ALL< that is", im pretty sure that for the writer of this story arc Multiverse meant everything and all that is.

This scan strengthen my argument.

As you can see in the text box, "every creature, on every planet, on every dimension feels the Multiversal tremors born of their fury" which pretty much states the entirety of the Marvel Verse with all those "every". Its all about the writers, and im quite sure they wanted to make PR Beyonder omnipotent, and how an omnipotent being experiments non-omnipotence. Its interesting to think about that.

Not to mention, the scan of LT claiming he's an omniversal being in an older story arc, yet in Secret Wars he was shitting his pants to someone who was "Multiversal" even though the word omniverse nor anything related was mentioned but implications of including everything in existence appear on panel while referring to the word "Multiversal". People tend to overlook this kind of evidence to make a "smart/fair" argument, which is indeed funny...

Also, Eternity should be a omniversal being when he represents the sum of all universes in the Marvel verse, its not like there's a bunch of Eternities for every universe in Marvel, but the fact logically he MUST be an omnipresent being, for the reasons explained above. So Thanos with HOTU should be powerful enough to be an omniversal being the same way PR Beyonder should. As Killemall said, its very difficult and unpractical to even measure that kind of power when any character surpasses the LT. At this point, its all about taking sides rather to try to prove a point of who is above the other. Thanos beat everybody while PR Beyonder didn't seem to have a limit on his powers, even claiming he could undo everything with a thought while talking to Reed, even himself... The word omnipotence appears quite a few times in Secret Wars as well, when referring to PR Beyonder.

This fight is a tie at best. And that is being lenient.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:08 pm

Lenient? I think not. I still think Battler would win. I still don't see how Beyonder is going to counter Golden Truth.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Akronawol17 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:15 pm

Nowhere did i see it say his power is infinite. The fact he can tire proves that. All these feats and claims, yet none of them put him above or equal to Battler.

Also, omnipotence is used everywhere as hyperbole. Beyonder sure as hell isn't omnipotent. Again, being capable of losing his powers, tiring, struggling with enemies, and such proves that. He's high-end multiversal, but not omnipotnet.

The fact is, it took a significant portion of his power to erase a concept, whereas Battler manipulates and ignores concepts all the time. He simply has better feats.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:11 pm

Chef_Banchou wrote:Lenient? I think not. I still think Battler would win. I still don't see how Beyonder is going to counter Golden Truth.
Gold Truth denies existence, that's not really new considering Beyonder is above LT and Eternity and that's kinda what they do already, while Golden Truth can be NLF Beyonder actually DID destroy everything and destroyed concepts. Battler's ability also depends on his faith in the attack.

Akronawol17 wrote:Nowhere did i see it say his power is infinite. The fact he can tire proves that. All these feats and claims, yet none of them put him above or equal to Battler.

Also, omnipotence is used everywhere as hyperbole. Beyonder sure as hell isn't omnipotent. Again, being capable of losing his powers, tiring, struggling with enemies, and such proves that.  He's high-end multiversal, but not omnipotnet.

The fact is, it took a significant portion of his power to erase a concept, whereas Battler manipulates and ignores concepts all the time. He simply has better feats.

It did not need to, he went beyond the powers of Eternity, Death, and beings above Living Tribunal could not even destroy a simple flower thanks to Beyonder. I have no idea how you can cry hyperbole given the statements of Umieko when Marvel characters clearly make the same statements said differently. Again refer to my scan, they did not say omnipotent, Beyonder willingly lost his powers, and he got them right back on his own. Beyonder easily bested LT which is a concept being, his power was above his and left him cowering at people weaker than Beyonder (MM).

High-end multiversal? He wasa bove all that is, reality, all planes. He was above the multiverse already with sheer size. The Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than the combined power in the multiverse (which includes the Living Tribunal)

Here is a bit of what LT can do:
"Even Beings as great as Eternity, Infinity, Death & Oblivion are subject to the Living Tribunal's Authority"
"Man's Universe (Multiverse) has it's own Infinite number of variants known as Alternate Universes, explored by the Watchers, (the Watchers explore the Multiverse)

All these variants share the same Three Spatial Dimensions and obey roughly the same Laws"
A single phrase uttered by LT actually POWERS UP the Infinity Gauntlet.
The Sentient Concepts in the 616 Multiverse exist No where else, Outside the Multiverse the LT oversees Concepts that are inconceivable to Mankind, and they are Not anything like Eternity and the Abstracts in the Prime Multiverse, so the Bio was right about the 616 Hierarchy, it's the only one in the Omniverse. Also, The Living Tribunal and Spectre momentarily OWN the PRE-Retcon Brothers: PRE-Retcon Brothers = supposedly ALL of DC & Marvel. When LT and Spectre MERGED the TWO Brothers by FORCE,  the Brothers became ONE Universe called the Amalgam Universe.
With a gesture LT STOPS the IG ATTACK and RECREATES the Abstracts. LT represents forces that dwarf the IG Warlock says, "It all comes down to you deciding if I should retain control of the IG"

LT answers him, "And DETERMINING if I have the power to"

Warlock, finishes his sentence, "Wrest the Gauntlet from me"

LT is gauging just how powerful Warlock is, or "Determining"
(or perhaps he's "determining" if he has the Power (as in Jurisdiction)

Remember Rune and the IG? (LT's 3 Faces MUST agree before he can act) Eternity says, "We await the wisdom of your judgement"

LT says, "And so you shall have it"

Warlock then says,

"Remember, you are about to hand down a verdict on one who is the Master of Power, Space, Reality, the Soul, abstracts, the Mind and Time" After all that LT responds,

"I DO .... Let it be known that I RULE against you"
Here LT acknowledges that it would take destroying this Reality (the Dimension of Manifestation) in order to take the Gauntlet from Warlock, he's not hesitating, he's not feeling dubious about the outcome, he simply rather not have to obliterate a Reality to strip Adam of the IG. Why would LT doubt his power, when they BOTH always Knew the outcome before it started? That's because the LT is Omniscient: "My Three Visages SEE the Past ... Present ... and Future ... I KNOW ALL"

Beyonder is above those guys. Again, i'm not seing how Battler wins this even with his item/magic descriptions. This is a tie at best.


Last edited by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:18 pm

Pretty much with everything presented here its a tie.
Both are extremely powerful but if both are infinite as said then again its a tie.
Or this can easily turn into a battle of NLF.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:29 pm

Gio Gio wrote:Pretty much with everything presented here its a tie.
Both are extremely powerful but if both are infinite as said then again its a tie.
Or this can easily turn into a battle of NLF.

I agree but it's a real pain to debate using Demonbane or Umnieko since they kinda go off of statements and the rules of their own universe. I don't doubt them, however Marvel and DC do the same thing yet it's pushed aside as NLF or hyperbole which is bull. I'm all for agreeing on a draw, but I'm not gonna say Beyonder loses because his identical feats are hyperbole while Battler's are legit. They do the same thing with different methods. Going though Marvels 70+ year run and finding the most minute details to debunk his feats is lowballing. I could easily say show me them actually destroying a multiverse that is not some description or something meant to reprisent it, but that would be unfair and biased. I honestly think both Demonbane and Umnieko are much cooler than Marvel or DC since I am much more into anime/manga, but come on, after awhile you can't just be above everything else, there is a point in which you do tie. But at this point I may just have to agree ti disagree since no matter what I show or say it wont change their mind. Regardless of the outcome Battler is a badass no doubt, I just which there was somewhere I could read the series, I loved Higarashi so Umnieko looks up my alley, I'm guessing YouTube walkthroughs are the only way I can read the series.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:42 pm

Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:Lenient? I think not. I still think Battler would win. I still don't see how Beyonder is going to counter Golden Truth.
Gold Truth denies existence, that's not really new considering Beyonder is above LT and Eternity and that's kinda what they do already, while Golden Truth can be NLF Beyonder actually DID destroy everything and destroyed concepts. Battler's ability also depends on his faith in the attack.

Akronawol17 wrote:Nowhere did i see it say his power is infinite. The fact he can tire proves that. All these feats and claims, yet none of them put him above or equal to Battler.

Also, omnipotence is used everywhere as hyperbole. Beyonder sure as hell isn't omnipotent. Again, being capable of losing his powers, tiring, struggling with enemies, and such proves that.  He's high-end multiversal, but not omnipotnet.

The fact is, it took a significant portion of his power to erase a concept, whereas Battler manipulates and ignores concepts all the time. He simply has better feats.

It did not need to, he went beyond the powers of Eternity, Death, and beings above Living Tribunal could not even destroy a simple flower thanks to Beyonder. I have no idea how you can cry hyperbole given the statements of Umieko when Marvel characters clearly make the same statements said differently. Again refer to my scan, they did not say omnipotent, Beyonder willingly lost his powers, and he got them right back on his own. Beyonder easily bested LT which is a concept being, his power was above his and left him cowering at people weaker than Beyonder (MM).

High-end multiversal? He wasa bove all that is, reality, all planes. He was above the multiverse already with sheer size. The Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than the combined power in the multiverse (which includes the Living Tribunal)

Here is a bit of what LT can do:
"Even Beings as great as Eternity, Infinity, Death & Oblivion are subject to the Living Tribunal's Authority"
"Man's Universe (Multiverse) has it's own Infinite number of variants known as Alternate Universes, explored by the Watchers, (the Watchers explore the Multiverse)

All these variants share the same Three Spatial Dimensions and obey roughly the same Laws"
A single phrase uttered by LT actually POWERS UP the Infinity Gauntlet.
The Sentient Concepts in the 616 Multiverse exist No where else, Outside the Multiverse the LT oversees Concepts that are inconceivable to Mankind, and they are Not anything like Eternity and the Abstracts in the Prime Multiverse, so the Bio was right about the 616 Hierarchy, it's the only one in the Omniverse. Also, The Living Tribunal and Spectre momentarily OWN the PRE-Retcon Brothers: PRE-Retcon Brothers = supposedly ALL of DC & Marvel. When LT and Spectre MERGED the TWO Brothers by FORCE,  the Brothers became ONE Universe called the Amalgam Universe.

Beyonder is above those guys. Again, i'm not seing how Battler wins this even with his item/magic descriptions. This is a tie at best.

Just because other characters can do it, doesn't mean Battler's attacks wont be effective. He can not only erase the existence of things, but erase and ignore concepts, as well. All of his attacks are top tier conceptual, and he can dish out as much DC as he needs to. And Beyonder still has no way to bypass Endless 9. Endless 9 doesn't just negate magic, but absolutely anything that is fictional, impossible, supernatural, mystical, or magical, in any way. An attack that destroys an omniverse? Proposterous! Reality warping existance to turn him into something? That's not happening! As well as other quippy things that Battler might say in reply to stuff like this, lol.

But seriously, Beyonder has no counter for Golden Key. Its an attack the cannot miss, cannot be blocked, cannot be stalled, cannot be dodged, and it ignores durability as well as concepts. Not to mention that Battler would blitz Beyonder, being above the concept of speed. Hell, he could even simply punch Beyonder and do a good number. His punches were compared to the concept of pain, yet another example of him weilding a concept like its nothing. He weilds, manipulates, and erases concepts with a gesture, whereas Beyonder, while impressive the feat was, had to tediously put a large portion of his power into a cup, and have Lady Death drink it. If he can't manipulate concepts without having to resort to such means, then he's not finding a way past Golden Key.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:46 pm

Yeah can't be blocked miss and all that on what scale?
Because then I can go on and say GER cannot miss be dodged and can effect any and everything just because of its stats and all.
It sounds very NLF as it was said in the previous post in their own verse maybe that's true and again concept attacking is great and all but what's a concept to infinity?
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:47 pm

Again this would be a tie or you'd need to say Battlers powers are no more than NLF.
Can't be missed and all that so GER is the same way but we can't say GER>Battler.
But with NLF GER>Battler.
You see what I mean it should be left at a tie.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:02 pm

Gio Gio wrote:Yeah can't be blocked miss and all that on what scale?
Because then I can go on and say GER cannot miss be dodged and can effect any and everything just because of its stats and all.
It sounds very NLF as it was said in the previous post in their own verse maybe that's true and again concept attacking is great and all but what's a concept to infinity?

In scale? Well, he easily babyshook a high tier multiversal witch, who could control concepts, and was above the concept of speed, using Golden Key. And I don't think he wmplifies the concepts infinitely, because I don't think they really have anything to multiply, lol.

But anyway, the fact is that I still see no way Beyonder can bypass Endless 9, avoid getting blitzed by Battler, or counter Golden Key, much less react to or survive it.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:25 pm

Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:Lenient? I think not. I still think Battler would win. I still don't see how Beyonder is going to counter Golden Truth.
Gold Truth denies existence, that's not really new considering Beyonder is above LT and Eternity and that's kinda what they do already, while Golden Truth can be NLF Beyonder actually DID destroy everything and destroyed concepts. Battler's ability also depends on his faith in the attack.

Akronawol17 wrote:Nowhere did i see it say his power is infinite. The fact he can tire proves that. All these feats and claims, yet none of them put him above or equal to Battler.

Also, omnipotence is used everywhere as hyperbole. Beyonder sure as hell isn't omnipotent. Again, being capable of losing his powers, tiring, struggling with enemies, and such proves that.  He's high-end multiversal, but not omnipotnet.

The fact is, it took a significant portion of his power to erase a concept, whereas Battler manipulates and ignores concepts all the time. He simply has better feats.

It did not need to, he went beyond the powers of Eternity, Death, and beings above Living Tribunal could not even destroy a simple flower thanks to Beyonder. I have no idea how you can cry hyperbole given the statements of Umieko when Marvel characters clearly make the same statements said differently. Again refer to my scan, they did not say omnipotent, Beyonder willingly lost his powers, and he got them right back on his own. Beyonder easily bested LT which is a concept being, his power was above his and left him cowering at people weaker than Beyonder (MM).

High-end multiversal? He wasa bove all that is, reality, all planes. He was above the multiverse already with sheer size. The Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than the combined power in the multiverse (which includes the Living Tribunal)

Here is a bit of what LT can do:
"Even Beings as great as Eternity, Infinity, Death & Oblivion are subject to the Living Tribunal's Authority"
"Man's Universe (Multiverse) has it's own Infinite number of variants known as Alternate Universes, explored by the Watchers, (the Watchers explore the Multiverse)

All these variants share the same Three Spatial Dimensions and obey roughly the same Laws"
A single phrase uttered by LT actually POWERS UP the Infinity Gauntlet.
The Sentient Concepts in the 616 Multiverse exist No where else, Outside the Multiverse the LT oversees Concepts that are inconceivable to Mankind, and they are Not anything like Eternity and the Abstracts in the Prime Multiverse, so the Bio was right about the 616 Hierarchy, it's the only one in the Omniverse. Also, The Living Tribunal and Spectre momentarily OWN the PRE-Retcon Brothers: PRE-Retcon Brothers = supposedly ALL of DC & Marvel. When LT and Spectre MERGED the TWO Brothers by FORCE,  the Brothers became ONE Universe called the Amalgam Universe.

Beyonder is above those guys. Again, i'm not seing how Battler wins this even with his item/magic descriptions. This is a tie at best.

Just because other characters can do it, doesn't mean Battler's attacks wont be effective. He can not only erase the existence of things, but erase and ignore concepts, as well. All of his attacks are top tier conceptual, and he can dish out as much DC as he needs to. And Beyonder still has no way to bypass Endless 9. Endless 9 doesn't just negate magic, but absolutely anything that is fictional, impossible, supernatural, mystical, or magical, in any way. An attack that destroys an omniverse? Proposterous! Reality warping existance to turn him into something? That's not happening! As well as other quippy things that Battler might say in reply to stuff like this, lol.

But seriously, Beyonder has no counter for Golden Key. Its an attack the cannot miss, cannot be blocked, cannot be stalled, cannot be dodged, and it ignores durability as well as concepts. Not to mention that Battler would blitz Beyonder, being above the concept of speed. Hell, he could even simply punch Beyonder and do a good number. His punches were compared to the concept of pain, yet another example of him weilding a concept like its nothing. He weilds, manipulates, and erases concepts with a gesture, whereas Beyonder, while impressive the feat was, had to tediously put a large portion of his power into a cup, and have Lady Death drink it. If he can't manipulate concepts without having to resort to such means, then he's not finding a way past Golden Key.

Death was something across all the multiverse, he erased it from all planes. The IG literally grants the powers you described, nothing stands against it, high tier multiversals are easily brushed daside with it's power yet Beyonder beats them, he bested LT who is a conceptual entity. His single method of taking out death who is more than a simple concept as it had it's own will, and personality. Even so, LT is able to pass jusdment even on Death and Infinity and boot the infinity gauntlet's power, Beyonder is above him. If he can beat the guy who gives the IG his power he can bypass Endless 9 which has the same function, again conceptual attacks don't matter as LT is a conception beyond mandkind's understanding and controls conceptions beyond mandkind. This is a draw, or like Gio said, NLF territory.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:30 pm

Chef_Banchou wrote:
Gio Gio wrote:Yeah can't be blocked miss and all that on what scale?
Because then I can go on and say GER cannot miss be dodged and can effect any and everything just because of its stats and all.
It sounds very NLF as it was said in the previous post in their own verse maybe that's true and again concept attacking is great and all but what's a concept to infinity?

In scale? Well, he easily babyshook a high tier multiversal witch, who could control concepts, and was above the concept of speed, using Golden Key. And I don't think he wmplifies the concepts infinitely, because I don't think they really have anything to multiply, lol.

But anyway, the fact is that I still see no way Beyonder can bypass Endless 9, avoid getting blitzed by Battler, or counter Golden Key, much less react to or survive it.

Beyonder's power is a million times greater than all the beings in Marvel, includes LT, Eternity, Spectre, IG, Molecule Man, Dormammu, Dr. Strange, the heart of the universe, and Uatu. All high-multiversal/reality level beings. IG and HOTU let you controle concepts as well, in fact LT controls concepts above what humans understand, concepts like death, speed, durability ect. are all concepts humans have in our universe, LT governs concepts beyond that.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:31 pm

Basically^
As you can see concept attacking or manipulation for that matter isn't all that great its impressive but not OMG amazing.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:38 pm

Yeah I don't know why some are acting like conceptual warping/attacks are something new and unheard of, people like Kamogawa from Medaka box was already doing that with All fiction, his power is nowhere close to anything in this thread but concept based attacks or warping are not some new thing.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:41 pm

Kuma literally erased color.
Like some people in fiction are above concepts etc.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:49 pm

And GER was able to negate death, time, and speed all at once.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:50 pm

Exactly its above those concepts and he even controlled the concept of life to some extent so concept attacking or manipulation isn't really all that great not to mention you'd be hurting the concept which I don't think honestly has anything to do with the person.
Hell even Karma was at Gio's disposal.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:57 pm

Yeah I think Araki wrote himself into a corner with Girono since he was meant to appear in part 6 but was written off since he would have easily stopped Puccie. I think Gio should have been saved for later arcs honestly.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:02 pm

Who knows maybe he'd appear in part 8?
It'd be pretty cool
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by EG_Sage on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:23 pm

Battler wins. E9+Golden Truth=GG.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:37 pm

Infinity Gauntlet=Gold Truth

Heart of the Universe= Endless 9

Beyonder>>Molecule Man>>Living Tribunal>>Heart Of The Universe>Infinity Gauntlet

At best this is a draw. Conceptual attacks are nothing new to Beyonder, LT is a conceptual being who governs plains with concepts beyond mankind's understanding yet he cannot best MM who was bested by Beyonder. In addition Beyonder exist in a realm above even LT's realm above the Multiverse out of reality and even above that.
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Kurohige
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

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