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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:01 pm

What do you mean?
He absorbs just to do it.
He doesn't have to absorb.
That was never stated in the novel.
And he's become infinite in everything which means copying and Dark Mirage? Yeah that could grant him something along those lines.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:02 pm

He simply remembered things and bam.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by dhalsim on Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:52 pm

Kurohige wrote:I think some people haven't read a lot of comics involving said reality warpers since they actually do have a lot of instances of reality warping, especially when one has the infinity gauntlet. Marvel/DC has had their omniverse created, destroyed, altered many times on a whim on many different occasions. Plus, if you are a reality warper you can do whatever you want, that's kind of a perk, you can do what you want, how you want and get the results you want. Them choosing to fire a blast doesn't mean that they are bad warpers. And despite my bias against most comics even I will admit that in terms of actual feats they blow most anime/manga/novels out the water since they actually show and have the author explain what is going on. I will agree that they are overhyped. Even so characters like Jim Jaspers have destroyed actual concepts and even warped logic, anti monitor as well. Even She Hulk

Shehulk has shown Reality-warping talents. In the John Byrne issues of her second series, She-Hulk somehow realized she was in a comic book and gained the power to talk to readers, interact with the creative team, violate panel borders, and tear through pages and so on.
 
Even Mxy was scared of some of these guys and they can destroy abstract concepts and logic on a whim. Not to mention both series have quite a handful of reality wapers,gods,omniscient beings to choose from. Doesn't change how I feel about the industry as of late but they are very powerful and have their share of super powerful reality warpers on par with some visual novel characters/web comics. Same can be said for Archie comics.


The reality warping shown is extremely shallow. The high level conceptual fuckery shown in Umineko and KKK are far more complex than anything Marvel characters have shown.

They actually fight through reality warping and have shown far greater feats than comic characters. Also they can't be done away by generic energy blasts.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by dhalsim on Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:54 pm

Kurohige wrote:
Gio Gio wrote:Novel Kars>DC and Marvel lel
As huge a Jojo fan as I am (Hell I'm pretty active on the Bizarre Community site, and own a pretty big collection)
Novel Kars is not above all of Marvel and DC, he would be high tier but event hen there are quite a few above him. Besides after a while they IS a limit to how powerful can be, after a bit no matter how overpowered a character appears the best they can hope for again top tier reality wapers is a draw. There is no one characters in fiction that is above the rest, multiple sure, but no one single being.

I agree with the no character can be above the rest part, but Novel Kars is above everyone in Marvel and DC. I don't think there's a single comic character that can match NK aside from TOAA. Even before finding Heaven, he showed feats on par with HotU.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:31 pm

dhalsim wrote:The reality warping shown is extremely shallow. The high level conceptual fuckery shown in Umineko and KKK are far more complex than anything Marvel characters have shown.

They actually fight through reality warping and have shown far greater feats than comic characters. Also they can't be done away by generic energy blasts.

They do fight through reality warping though, one example is Kubik's total pwnage of Beyonder's "universe"

He warped that sucker into a sphere that fit in the palm of his hand and was about to crush it, killing everyone in it, till he was stopped by the Shaper of Worlds.
The existence of Precon Beyonder able to manipulate Cosmic beings and sending fear throughout the Cosmos. Mxy destroyed the DC multiverse and snapped his fingers and brought everything back like nothing happened. That's the best on panel feat I have seen and to add to it Beyonder, Molecule Man, Dormammu, Nightmare, Living Tribunal, Genesis, Thanos (IG) and D'Spyare pretty much did the same thing. Galactus with UN destroyed and recreated the multiverse pressing a button. And the marvel multiverse contains infinite universes, not like Dc multiverse which contains 52 unviverses.

MXY alone has incredible feats:
Breaks Spectre

Fighting Batmite with Galaxies

Destroys the 5th dimension

Destroys the Elseworlds and the entire DCU



"No more Infinite Earth's."

"No more alternative UniverseS."

"No more Pasts. No more Futures."

"No more Superdopes."

"No more anything."

Quisp, who is an inferior Imp compared to Mxy explains this:

"I move freely through Time AND Hypertime"...

"I can penetrate your reality at any level and control it"

There are also plenty of scans of then simply fighting with reality warping, Umieko although legit, reads pages and paragraphs to get an idea of what they actualy do, Marvel and DC just do it. I have not seen anything from NK or Umieko or even Demonbane that compares with anything above. Another example is Wandafrom Marvel. She's one of the very few reality manipulators whose warps can effect the entire multiverse. Doctor strange said her 'spells' were so complex that trying to undo them would cause reality to unravel. In AvX, she's suggested to be on par with the phoenix force; when scott tried to get hope back from her, she blocked his power and teleported hope away. I'm not saying Marvel or DC destroy all anime,manga,novels ect. but it's not like they are that weak, they have characters that can tie with some of the best visual novel characters.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by ChaosKnight75 on Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:41 am

Kurohige wrote:
dhalsim wrote:The reality warping shown is extremely shallow. The high level conceptual fuckery shown in Umineko and KKK are far more complex than anything Marvel characters have shown.

They actually fight through reality warping and have shown far greater feats than comic characters. Also they can't be done away by generic energy blasts.

They do fight through reality warping though, one example is Kubik's total pwnage of Beyonder's "universe"

He warped that sucker into a sphere that fit in the palm of his hand and was about to crush it, killing everyone in it, till he was stopped by the Shaper of Worlds.
The existence of Precon Beyonder able to manipulate Cosmic beings and sending fear throughout the Cosmos. Mxy destroyed the DC multiverse and snapped his fingers and brought everything back like nothing happened. That's the best on panel feat I have seen and to add to it Beyonder, Molecule Man, Dormammu, Nightmare, Living Tribunal, Genesis, Thanos (IG) and D'Spyare pretty much did the same thing. Galactus with UN destroyed and recreated the multiverse pressing a button. And the marvel multiverse contains infinite universes, not like Dc multiverse which contains 52 unviverses.

MXY alone has incredible feats:
Breaks Spectre

Fighting Batmite with Galaxies

Destroys the 5th dimension

Destroys the Elseworlds and the entire DCU



"No more Infinite Earth's."

"No more alternative UniverseS."

"No more Pasts. No more Futures."

"No more Superdopes."

"No more anything."

Quisp, who is an inferior Imp compared to Mxy explains this:

"I move freely through Time AND Hypertime"...

"I can penetrate your reality at any level and control it"

There are also plenty of scans of then simply fighting with reality warping, Umieko although legit, reads pages and paragraphs to get an idea of what they actualy do, Marvel and DC just do it. I have not seen anything from NK or Umieko or even Demonbane that compares with anything above. Another example is Wandafrom Marvel. She's one of the very few reality manipulators whose warps can effect the entire multiverse. Doctor strange said her 'spells' were so complex that trying to undo them would cause reality to unravel. In AvX, she's suggested to be on par with the phoenix force; when scott tried to get hope back from her, she blocked his power and teleported hope away. I'm not saying Marvel or DC destroy all anime,manga,novels ect. but it's not like they are that weak, they have characters that can tie with some of the best visual novel characters.
Yeah I agree the comic downplay is bad, but there's definitely feats in Demonbane  that match that.  Even if their visual novels, I like them since the feats done are often quite clearly explained. I know Mr Mxy is Multiversal, however he still technically did that feat universe by universe. Demonebane characters that arent even the Top Tier Elder Gods repeatedly create Infinite Universes level  destruction against each other

"Where they reached was beyond super time and super space, at the top of super dimension… super super space time continuum.
At there, Edgar and Al Azif watched.
Infinite universes popping like bubbles.
Inside infinite time loop like chain.
Infinite Demonbane fought, fought, and fought.
They were one of feasible possibilities.
They were one of chosen possibilities.
They were one of lost possibilities.
Infinitely intersecting and circulating like flow of blood, getting at one point. Infinite yet one fate, a part of it, yet entirety.
Entire eternal time, eternity beyond eternity. Infinite eternity chain…
Eternal evil cutting sword, DEMONBANE Athleta Aeternum fought, fought and fought."

Index current Top Tiers consider someone like Othinus who can casually create and end infinite universes and did so countless times to be a failure. Said Top Tiers exist outside all of existance in an infinitely, infinite non-existant world where the concepts of time and space don't apply. If they want to leave said world, they have to divide their powers infinitely which is what it takes for whatever universe they step in to not break like glass unintentionally by their mere presence. They did that too since said world, despite the description, was destroyed in a fight between one of them and Crowley
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:25 am

Yes I know that they can match that hence why I said they can tie, Mxy is even scared of some people in that universe. He also didn't have to do it it universe by universe as in the panels above he did it in one move. Also the quote "No more infinite Earths" leads me to believe in was more than one at a time. Even then he can still break out of his own series, knows he is a comic character, attack authors, destroy panel lines, stops editors from erasing him ect. He is well outside concepts with things like that as he is also above characters who remove concepts on a whim. I did forget about the feat where they had to divide themselves infinitely, it a feat that is a bit more hax than the Light Hawk Wings which can be created infinitely but only so many can exist at once without destroying the universe. Still people like Mxy can do that same sort or thing if they wanted, they just have amazing control of their power.

In no way is any one comic character above any visual novel or manga, but it's not like they get stomped either. I mean both genres have more reality warpers than needed ever, as well as multiple high tier once existing at one time. Both also have different concepts on which they warp on (This is due to author preference, I wont count that towards the character, i.e. Universe, dimension, reality, whatever they want to call it, they treat it the same.)

They have comparable feats and both sides have characters of greater tiers than they ones shown to have said feats. hence why I think it would be a draw.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:22 pm

I'm just saying breaking the 4th wall and gag feats should not count.
Otherwise Deadpool>Mxy
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:30 pm

No doubt that Mxy would tie with NK or EGD or some in the Umineko verse.
Above all these are some of the most powerful characters I know. Now imagine if we brought Mxy NK EGD and Battler into one big manga of their own huh?
Broken beyond limits? I think so.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by dhalsim on Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:20 pm

Kurohige wrote:Yes I know that they can match that hence why I said they can tie, Mxy is even scared of some people in that universe. He also didn't have to do it it universe by universe as in the panels above he did it in one move. Also the quote "No more infinite Earths" leads me to believe in was more than one at a time. Even then he can still break out of his own series, knows he is a comic character, attack authors, destroy panel lines, stops editors from erasing him ect. He is well outside concepts with things like that as he is also above characters who remove concepts on a whim. I did forget about the feat where they had to divide themselves infinitely, it a feat that is a bit more hax than the Light Hawk Wings which can be created infinitely but only so many can exist at once without destroying the universe. Still people like Mxy can do that same sort or thing if they wanted, they just have amazing control of their power.

In no way is any one comic character above any visual novel or manga, but it's not like they get stomped either. I mean both genres have more reality warpers than needed ever, as well as multiple high tier once existing at one time. Both also have different concepts on which they warp on (This is due to author preference, I wont count that towards the character, i.e. Universe, dimension, reality, whatever they want to call it, they treat it the same.)

They have comparable feats and both sides have characters of greater tiers than they ones shown to have said feats. hence why I think it would be a draw.

It's not at all a tie.
Destroying infinite universes over time versus casually destroying and recreating an infinite amount of universes every moment just as a side effect of fighting. Even low tiers in Demonbane can do that. Nyarlathotep could one shot the said low tiers, and EGD could one shot Nyarlathotep. No one in Marvel or DC has shown this type of power.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:29 pm

dhalsim wrote:
Kurohige wrote:Yes I know that they can match that hence why I said they can tie, Mxy is even scared of some people in that universe. He also didn't have to do it it universe by universe as in the panels above he did it in one move. Also the quote "No more infinite Earths" leads me to believe in was more than one at a time. Even then he can still break out of his own series, knows he is a comic character, attack authors, destroy panel lines, stops editors from erasing him ect. He is well outside concepts with things like that as he is also above characters who remove concepts on a whim. I did forget about the feat where they had to divide themselves infinitely, it a feat that is a bit more hax than the Light Hawk Wings which can be created infinitely but only so many can exist at once without destroying the universe. Still people like Mxy can do that same sort or thing if they wanted, they just have amazing control of their power.

In no way is any one comic character above any visual novel or manga, but it's not like they get stomped either. I mean both genres have more reality warpers than needed ever, as well as multiple high tier once existing at one time. Both also have different concepts on which they warp on (This is due to author preference, I wont count that towards the character, i.e. Universe, dimension, reality, whatever they want to call it, they treat it the same.)

They have comparable feats and both sides have characters of greater tiers than they ones shown to have said feats. hence why I think it would be a draw.

It's not at all a tie.
Destroying infinite universes over time versus casually destroying and recreating an infinite amount of universes every moment just as a side effect of fighting. Even low tiers in Demonbane can do that. Nyarlathotep could one shot the said low tiers, and EGD could one shot Nyarlathotep. No one in Marvel or DC has shown this type of power.
Now you'd have to follow along the rules of NLF.
In a neutral zone their are no infinite universes and whatnot so?
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by dhalsim on Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:35 pm

Gio Gio wrote:
dhalsim wrote:
Kurohige wrote:Yes I know that they can match that hence why I said they can tie, Mxy is even scared of some people in that universe. He also didn't have to do it it universe by universe as in the panels above he did it in one move. Also the quote "No more infinite Earths" leads me to believe in was more than one at a time. Even then he can still break out of his own series, knows he is a comic character, attack authors, destroy panel lines, stops editors from erasing him ect. He is well outside concepts with things like that as he is also above characters who remove concepts on a whim. I did forget about the feat where they had to divide themselves infinitely, it a feat that is a bit more hax than the Light Hawk Wings which can be created infinitely but only so many can exist at once without destroying the universe. Still people like Mxy can do that same sort or thing if they wanted, they just have amazing control of their power.

In no way is any one comic character above any visual novel or manga, but it's not like they get stomped either. I mean both genres have more reality warpers than needed ever, as well as multiple high tier once existing at one time. Both also have different concepts on which they warp on (This is due to author preference, I wont count that towards the character, i.e. Universe, dimension, reality, whatever they want to call it, they treat it the same.)

They have comparable feats and both sides have characters of greater tiers than they ones shown to have said feats. hence why I think it would be a draw.

It's not at all a tie.
Destroying infinite universes over time versus casually destroying and recreating an infinite amount of universes every moment just as a side effect of fighting. Even low tiers in Demonbane can do that. Nyarlathotep could one shot the said low tiers, and EGD could one shot Nyarlathotep. No one in Marvel or DC has shown this type of power.
Now you'd have to follow along the rules of NLF.
In a neutral zone their are no infinite universes and whatnot so?

Yeah but destroying an infinite amount of universes is treated as a big deal for Mxy. For Demonbane characters, they hardly even notice themselves creating and destroying infinite universes.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:49 pm

Just because someone doesn't notice it vs someone who does doesn't make it any better.
They both do the same thing somethings being destroyed.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:28 am

dhalsim wrote:It's not at all a tie.
Destroying infinite universes over time versus casually destroying and recreating an infinite amount of universes every moment just as a side effect of fighting. Even low tiers in Demonbane can do that. Nyarlathotep could one shot the said low tiers, and EGD could one shot Nyarlathotep. No one in Marvel or DC has shown this type of power.
It is, regardless of how they do it its the same thing, both casually destroyed infinite universes with no effort, Mxy was not even serious in any of those showings, unlike in Demonbane in which characters were actually fighting and causing those side affects Mxy and Batmite were doing the same thing as a petty squabble, nothing serious or even trying to harm each other. You could also argue that Mxy simply has better control of his power to not have any kind of side affects like that. The guy was attacking the writers and removing coloring from characters and was self aware as actual feats-not comedic affect or toon force. With feats like that you can't really surpass that just because one sounds more impressive. DC has beings that can create and destroy infinite universes on a whim and fight each other causing reality itself to be destroyed and re-created, yet Batmite casually wipes them, the universe, reality, and the book itself away. That's why I say it's a draw, not only is this topic something easily debatable on which is considered higher tier reality warping since being a true reality warper means there really is no limit in the first place, but also because authors have different interpretations for what is considered all-powerful or infinite or casual. Things like Mxy arguing with Batmite destroying everything vs Demonbane character not noticing it is not sufficient evidence of dominance but rather their own character. Mxy may just be more aware. They do the exact same thing, just one from the context of a Japanese author while the other form an American one.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:29 am

Alright, the Mr. Mxy and Marvel/DC power debate is getting old, guys. The topic of this thread is Battler vs PR Beyonder, please stay on topic.

If you want to debate another topic, I suggest that you either make a thread for it, or take it to PM.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:56 am

It really wasn't so much a debate with Mxy as it was the downplaying of Marvel/DC, kinda hard to debate for someone when others are saying the entire verse is incapable of something. That was the point of the scans. At any rate I'll go with Beyonder to make things interesting.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by dhalsim on Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:16 pm

Kurohige wrote:
dhalsim wrote:It's not at all a tie.
Destroying infinite universes over time versus casually destroying and recreating an infinite amount of universes every moment just as a side effect of fighting. Even low tiers in Demonbane can do that. Nyarlathotep could one shot the said low tiers, and EGD could one shot Nyarlathotep. No one in Marvel or DC has shown this type of power.
It is, regardless of how they do it its the same thing, both casually destroyed infinite universes with no effort, Mxy was not even serious in any of those showings, unlike in Demonbane in which characters were actually fighting and causing those side affects Mxy and Batmite were doing the same thing as a petty squabble, nothing serious or even trying to harm each other. You could also argue that Mxy simply has better control of his power to not have any kind of side affects like that. The guy was attacking the writers and removing coloring from characters and was self aware as actual feats-not comedic affect or toon force. With feats like that you can't really surpass that just because one sounds more impressive. DC has beings that can create and destroy infinite universes on a whim and fight each other causing reality itself to be destroyed and re-created, yet Batmite casually wipes them, the universe, reality, and the book itself away. That's why I say it's a draw, not only is this topic something easily debatable on which is considered higher tier reality warping since being a true reality warper means there really is no limit in the first place, but also because authors have different interpretations for what is considered all-powerful or infinite or casual. Things like Mxy arguing with Batmite destroying everything vs Demonbane character not noticing it is not sufficient evidence of dominance but rather their own character. Mxy may just be more aware. They do the exact same thing, just one from the context of a Japanese author while the other form an American one.


The thing is, Demonbane characters aren't even trying to destroy and recreate infinite universes. They just do it. Nya created a loop where universes constantly get destroyed and recreated just to create a single result. The writers are just ordinary humans, beating them is not at all impressive. Don't say he broke into the real world. That's not a feat. The writers just had Mr. Mxy "come out of the comic book" but he was still in a fictional story after all.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:35 pm

Yes, hence why I said that can be considered weakness, they can't control their own power, it happened against their will. Demonbane only hold power in their verse, Mxy can freely travel to other series entirely and use his abilities the same there. Also stopping the authors from erasing you and even using the comic itself as a weapon is a feat, being self aware and ripping whole pages out is a feat as well. The point is both characters are capable of the same thing, Demonbane is simply based on the Cthulhu mythos, both make the impossible possible. Molecule Man launched a blast capable of destroying billions of dimensions, which the Beyonder shrugged off. MXY>>>>Beyonder and that was without warping. Marvel dimensions are basically universes with different properties, laws of physics, etc. That's how Marvel defines them.

Demonbane characters are Metaversal, Marvel has an Omniverse, there is no end to it, and it gets destroyed by characters weaker than Mxy. Mxy gets rid of the fiction entirely. Again I'm not even saying he stomps, but the two can surpass each other.

As for the fight itself, can you give me some good feats on Battler? Don't wanna receive the ban hammer already for a good debate.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by dhalsim on Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:59 pm

Kurohige wrote:Yes, hence why I said that can be considered weakness, they can't control their own power, it happened against their will. Demonbane only hold power in their verse, Mxy can freely travel to other series entirely and use his abilities the same there. Also stopping the authors from erasing you and even using the comic itself as a weapon is a feat, being self aware and ripping whole pages out is a feat as well. The point is both characters are capable of the same thing, Demonbane is simply based on the Cthulhu mythos, both make the impossible possible. Molecule Man launched a blast capable of destroying billions of dimensions, which the Beyonder shrugged off. MXY>>>>Beyonder and that was without warping.  Marvel dimensions are basically universes with different properties, laws of physics, etc. That's how Marvel defines them.

Demonbane characters are Metaversal, Marvel has an Omniverse, there is no end to it, and it gets destroyed by characters weaker than Mxy. Mxy gets rid of the fiction entirely. Again I'm not even saying he stomps, but the two can surpass each other.

As for the fight itself, can you give me some good feats on Battler? Don't wanna receive the ban hammer already for a good debate.


What are you talking about? They did have control over their powers. Not to mention, Nyarlathotep was able to casually remove both of them from existence and retcon the entire thing. Mr. Mxy didn't actually stop the authors. The authors just wrote Mr. Mxy to stop them. Fictional characters can't do anything on their own free will, so feats like that aren't meant to be taken seriously.

Demonbane also has an infinite amount of universes.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:50 pm

Kurohige wrote:Yes, hence why I said that can be considered weakness, they can't control their own power, it happened against their will. Demonbane only hold power in their verse, Mxy can freely travel to other series entirely and use his abilities the same there. Also stopping the authors from erasing you and even using the comic itself as a weapon is a feat, being self aware and ripping whole pages out is a feat as well. The point is both characters are capable of the same thing, Demonbane is simply based on the Cthulhu mythos, both make the impossible possible. Molecule Man launched a blast capable of destroying billions of dimensions, which the Beyonder shrugged off. MXY>>>>Beyonder and that was without warping.  Marvel dimensions are basically universes with different properties, laws of physics, etc. That's how Marvel defines them.

Demonbane characters are Metaversal, Marvel has an Omniverse, there is no end to it, and it gets destroyed by characters weaker than Mxy. Mxy gets rid of the fiction entirely. Again I'm not even saying he stomps, but the two can surpass each other.

As for the fight itself, can you give me some good feats on Battler? Don't wanna receive the ban hammer already for a good debate.

Here's a list of the basics of what he can do:

Basic Magic: As a sorcerer he can turn his imagination in reality with ease, still he cannot perform magic title except his own one

Endless Magic: Battler's title magic, inherited from Beatrice. He can raise the value of 1 to infinite. he can repeat any situation infinite times, this include killing and revival, creation and destruction, the games.

Summoning: As he received Beatrice's powers and became the territory lord of the fragment. He can summon furniture with the one Beatrice had a contract, these are Goat Butlers, The Seven Stakes of Purgatory, Ronove and Gaap.

Truths: Truths are moves used in debates between human and witches, while they're arguments they usually take the form of powerful conceptual weapons that damages the concept of her target. Because truth is a conceptual move, it cannot be avoided, but can be confronted with other truths. In the first part of the story he can use only the blue truth, when he became a sorcerer he gained the usage of red and gold truths.

Golden Longsword: The red key that impaled him turned gold due to Beato's sacrifice and his new knowledge of the truth. Now it recognizes Battler as its master and shares the same properties of a Red Key (that means that denies evasion, escape, defense, buying time, and cause conceptual damage that wounds the existence of the target). The sword slash with red and blue truth, and can perform the gold truth

Red Truth: Anything said in red is truth and no proof is required to that, to say the truth, the sorcerer must know the truth. If he were to lie in red, he'll choke and will be unable to speak. It had been stated that by the use of red truth the existence of fictional beings like the witches can be denied, an thus they'll stop existing. Battler's red truth is performed by his golden long sword

Blue Truth: Battler uses it frequently. It's used as a theory that works as counter argument to the opponent's statement, the Blue truth sometimes take the form of an stake that impales the opponent; the opponent won't be able to remove the stake in any possible way until he/she found a way to counter the blue truth's argument using the red truth. Battler's blue truth takes the form of an stake or blade, and when he became the endless sorcerer he uses it with the golden long sword.

Game Master: Battler is the game master of the sixth game and the first one of the episode eight, with this rank, he is omniscient about all the success in Rokkenjima as he created them (however he doesn't know about the detective's behavior). He can reach a more higher plane of existence, the plane of the Game Master in the one He "regulates the game". Whenever Battler create a game, this game is contained in a Kakera in the endless sea of fragments, every Kakera is stated to contain an universe, thus by creating a game, he creates a new universe in the one the only differences are the success in the Rokkenjima's massacre. He can use the gold truth as a Game Master.

Gold Truth: An unique truth that can only be used by the game master, this truth works similar as a red truth and wavers in a different fashion than the red truth. Sometimes it can be inferior, but other superiors. When is superior it can easily bypass a red truth. Its real function has never be properly explained, but is hinted that it had some relationship with the statement of the rules of the game. Battler uses it with his golden long sword

Endless Nine: An absolute shield unique to Battler, it's based in his skepticism, his fierce determination to prove that magic wasn't involved in the murders, gave him a pink barrier that protects him from absolutely all magical attacks, as magic in Umineko is all that is fiction, he is practically invulnerable to all fictional attacks. The barrier wavers from 1 to 9, 1 being the weakest while 9 being the strongest, able to block god's attacks. Battler took the nine and multiplied it by infinite. Theoretical this barrier protect him from absolute all, however this can lead to NLF, however it had been showed that he can block instant kill moves and universal blasts.

Credit goes to slacker the hacker from Comicvine for this format. It's easier format than the wiki which has several articles on Battler's powers.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:25 pm

dhalsim wrote:What are you talking about? They did have control over their powers. Not to mention, Nyarlathotep was able to casually remove both of them from existence and retcon the entire thing. Mr. Mxy didn't actually stop the authors. The authors just wrote Mr. Mxy to stop them. Fictional characters can't do anything on their own free will, so feats like that aren't meant to be taken seriously.Demonbane also has an infinite amount of universes.
Well I thought you said that they were destroying universes by merely existing and continually creating and destroying them while fighting as a feat, I did not know they were trying to do that. I was saying if that is the case then just because Mxy doesn't blow up his universe by standing still doe snot mean he is weaker. Galactus and Thanos have both destroyed Marvel U. and Superman once destroyed reality, along with a few other characters, yet Mxy blows all those guys out the water easily. Yes I know Mxy does not have his own free will, but the intent is still there, authors's intent. To show just how crazy strong Mxy is and on what kind of level his reality manipulation is on. It's not like Deadpool who only talks to authors and messes things up, Mxy manipulates things on that level. Yes it's goofy and makes no sense, but neither does making an attack that is infinit x infinity, yet people in demonbane can do it no problem. It's not like Mxy did these feats as a one time thing, it's a regular part of his character. Mxy casually erases people who can destroy all of DCU, (And there are multiple) and enter other comic series, and manipulate the 4th wall, not just break it. Since Demonbane is a visual novel he would just scramble all the words on the pages and since without words, there have no feats, they can't really do anything. That is just what his power it, that is the character.


Chef_Banchou wrote:Here's a list of the basics of what he can do:

Basic Magic: As a sorcerer he can turn his imagination in reality with ease, still he cannot perform magic title except his own one

Endless Magic: Battler's title magic, inherited from Beatrice. He can raise the value of 1 to infinite. he can repeat any situation infinite times, this include killing and revival, creation and destruction, the games.

Summoning: As he received Beatrice's powers and became the territory lord of the fragment. He can summon furniture with the one Beatrice had a contract, these are Goat Butlers, The Seven Stakes of Purgatory, Ronove and Gaap.

Truths: Truths are moves used in debates between human and witches, while they're arguments they usually take the form of powerful conceptual weapons that damages the concept of her target. Because truth is a conceptual move, it cannot be avoided, but can be confronted with other truths. In the first part of the story he can use only the blue truth, when he became a sorcerer he gained the usage of red and gold truths.

Golden Longsword: The red key that impaled him turned gold due to Beato's sacrifice and his new knowledge of the truth. Now it recognizes Battler as its master and shares the same properties of a Red Key (that means that denies evasion, escape, defense, buying time, and cause conceptual damage that wounds the existence of the target). The sword slash with red and blue truth, and can perform the gold truth

Red Truth: Anything said in red is truth and no proof is required to that, to say the truth, the sorcerer must know the truth. If he were to lie in red, he'll choke and will be unable to speak. It had been stated that by the use of red truth the existence of fictional beings like the witches can be denied, an thus they'll stop existing. Battler's red truth is performed by his golden long sword

Blue Truth: Battler uses it frequently. It's used as a theory that works as counter argument to the opponent's statement, the Blue truth sometimes take the form of an stake that impales the opponent; the opponent won't be able to remove the stake in any possible way until he/she found a way to counter the blue truth's argument using the red truth. Battler's blue truth takes the form of an stake or blade, and when he became the endless sorcerer he uses it with the golden long sword.

Game Master: Battler is the game master of the sixth game and the first one of the episode eight, with this rank, he is omniscient about all the success in Rokkenjima as he created them (however he doesn't know about the detective's behavior). He can reach a more higher plane of existence, the plane of the Game Master in the one He "regulates the game". Whenever Battler create a game, this game is contained in a Kakera in the endless sea of fragments, every Kakera is stated to contain an universe, thus by creating a game, he creates a new universe in the one the only differences are the success in the Rokkenjima's massacre. He can use the gold truth as a Game Master.

Gold Truth: An unique truth that can only be used by the game master, this truth works similar as a red truth and wavers in a different fashion than the red truth. Sometimes it can be inferior, but other superiors. When is superior it can easily bypass a red truth. Its real function has never be properly explained, but is hinted that it had some relationship with the statement of the rules of the game. Battler uses it with his golden long sword

Endless Nine: An absolute shield unique to Battler, it's based in his skepticism, his fierce determination to prove that magic wasn't involved in the murders, gave him a pink barrier that protects him from absolutely all magical attacks, as magic in Umineko is all that is fiction, he is practically invulnerable to all fictional attacks. The barrier wavers from 1 to 9, 1 being the weakest while 9 being the strongest, able to block god's attacks. Battler took the nine and multiplied it by infinite. Theoretical this barrier protect him from absolute all, however this can lead to NLF, however it had been showed that he can block instant kill moves and universal blasts.

Credit goes to slacker the hacker from Comicvine for this format. It's easier format than the wiki which has several articles on Battler's powers.
Damn, I'm inclined to say he wins, however here are some o Beyonder's best feats:

1.After discovering and observing our universe (616) through the pinhole, Beyonder destroys an entire galaxy and creates the battle world from it to act as a battlefield for the secret war between the superheroes and villains

2. Sensing that the Beyonder is a power beyond the multiverse itself and is capable of granting any wishes, Galactus and Doctor Doom head for the rift only to get swatted like flies. Professor Xavier himself says Galactus is less than a fly when compared to the Beyonder

3. Doom usurps Galactus' power and goes on to challenge the greater power of the Beyonder, their battle despite it being in the beyond realm is affecting the very fabric of reality, Doom eventually gets overpowered but manages to steal Beyonder's power with one of Galactus' technological devices (which happened off panel) “supposedly” killing the Beyonder in the process. Note: The Dr. Doom that was on the battleworld at the time of the first secret war, was actually a future version of him (as revealed in fantastic four #288)

4. While in possession of the Beyonder's powers, Doom wasn't able to fully control that power, and so in a burst of anger, he could have destroyed all of reality.The Beyonder however, wasn't truly dead; his consciousness survived and eventually possessed the villain Klaw, whom he used to get his powers back when Doom was at his most vulnerable moment. Doom gives him infinitesimal micro fraction of his strength and tells him it is enough to blacken ten thousand suns. The Beyonder returns for Secret Wars II in which he takes a physical human form to experience earth and humanity

5. The Beyonder finally returns in Secret Wars 2 and he instantly conquers the Earth and controls everything and everyone on it including bacteria, particles and the like

6. The Beyonder casually explores the Many-layered universe/entire multiverse

7. Falling in love with Dazzler, the Beyonder grants her half of his power which is thousand times greater than the combined energy of existence. Dazzler however, rejected the power and fell to her death, the Beyonder destroys an entire galaxy in his grief, then calms down and resurrects her

8. The Beyonder goes back into his Beyond realm, without him it is completely empty since he constitutes everything there and all his energies are contained in his human form. So he starts conjuring everything that comes to his mind including planets

9. Beyonder vs The Celestials. A fight which takes place on countless levels other than the physical. The Beyonder beat them rather easily

10. Beyonder is too big for the multiverse, his very presence alters the entire multiverse a great deal, without him even knowing it

11. Beyonder puts a large portion of his power in the cup and forces Death to drink it, erasing the concept of death across all the multiverse. Then he brings her back with Dave's sacrifice

12. Even with a small fraction of his power, Beyonder is still more powerful than the entire cosmic assembly which includes the Living tribunal and Eternity

13. Just by being angry, he causes multiversal-wide destruction, molecule man repairs it within seconds

14. A brief confrontation between molecule man and the Beyonder in which the he tanked an attack that could have destroyed several billion dimensions, like it was nothing

15. The Beyonder destroys parallel dimensions/universes just by standing there. He proceeds to erase a thousand galactic races including their home worlds out of existence with a mere shrug

16. In his universe, the Beyonder is the one and the many, the nothing and the all, he had no beginning nor will he have an end

17. The Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than the combined power in the multiverse which includes the Living Tribunal

18. Even the mightiest beings in the multiverse are like microbes to the Beyonder. His imagination and reality are one

19. The heroes confront the Beyonder; he easily deals with them, all except the molecule man, whom he engages in a multiversal battle which also affects every single creature in it. The Beyonder then delivers a death stroke which seemingly kills everything in its path, reaching to the ends of infinity

20. Believing that everyone is dead (though in fact, the molecule man removed every being from the blast’s path, fooling the Beyonder) the Beyonder sought to reincarnate himself in a mortal body (by becoming an infant and rapidly aging to transform to an adult, so that he could truly experience humanity) through a machine he created. The molecule man destroys the machine and sends the enormous energies of the Beyonder into his beyond-realm forming a big bang and creating a new universe in the process
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:54 pm

Kurohige wrote:
dhalsim wrote:What are you talking about? They did have control over their powers. Not to mention, Nyarlathotep was able to casually remove both of them from existence and retcon the entire thing. Mr. Mxy didn't actually stop the authors. The authors just wrote Mr. Mxy to stop them. Fictional characters can't do anything on their own free will, so feats like that aren't meant to be taken seriously.Demonbane also has an infinite amount of universes.
Well I thought you said that they were destroying universes by merely existing and continually creating and destroying them while fighting as a feat, I did not know they were trying to do that. I was saying if that is the case then just because Mxy doesn't blow up his universe by standing still doe snot mean he is weaker. Galactus and Thanos have both destroyed Marvel U. and Superman once destroyed reality, along with a few other characters, yet Mxy blows all those guys out the water easily. Yes I know Mxy does not have his own free will, but the intent is still there, authors's intent. To show just how crazy strong Mxy is and on what kind of level his reality manipulation is on. It's not like Deadpool who only talks to authors and messes things up, Mxy manipulates things on that level. Yes it's goofy and makes no sense, but neither does making an attack that is infinit x infinity, yet people in demonbane can do it no problem. It's not like Mxy did these feats as a one time thing, it's a regular part of his character. Mxy casually erases people who can destroy all of DCU, (And there are multiple) and enter other comic series, and manipulate the 4th wall, not just break it. Since Demonbane is a visual novel he would just scramble all the words on the pages and since without words, there have no feats, they can't really do anything. That is just what his power it, that is the character.


Chef_Banchou wrote:Here's a list of the basics of what he can do:

Basic Magic: As a sorcerer he can turn his imagination in reality with ease, still he cannot perform magic title except his own one

Endless Magic: Battler's title magic, inherited from Beatrice. He can raise the value of 1 to infinite. he can repeat any situation infinite times, this include killing and revival, creation and destruction, the games.

Summoning: As he received Beatrice's powers and became the territory lord of the fragment. He can summon furniture with the one Beatrice had a contract, these are Goat Butlers, The Seven Stakes of Purgatory, Ronove and Gaap.

Truths: Truths are moves used in debates between human and witches, while they're arguments they usually take the form of powerful conceptual weapons that damages the concept of her target. Because truth is a conceptual move, it cannot be avoided, but can be confronted with other truths. In the first part of the story he can use only the blue truth, when he became a sorcerer he gained the usage of red and gold truths.

Golden Longsword: The red key that impaled him turned gold due to Beato's sacrifice and his new knowledge of the truth. Now it recognizes Battler as its master and shares the same properties of a Red Key (that means that denies evasion, escape, defense, buying time, and cause conceptual damage that wounds the existence of the target). The sword slash with red and blue truth, and can perform the gold truth

Red Truth: Anything said in red is truth and no proof is required to that, to say the truth, the sorcerer must know the truth. If he were to lie in red, he'll choke and will be unable to speak. It had been stated that by the use of red truth the existence of fictional beings like the witches can be denied, an thus they'll stop existing. Battler's red truth is performed by his golden long sword

Blue Truth: Battler uses it frequently. It's used as a theory that works as counter argument to the opponent's statement, the Blue truth sometimes take the form of an stake that impales the opponent; the opponent won't be able to remove the stake in any possible way until he/she found a way to counter the blue truth's argument using the red truth. Battler's blue truth takes the form of an stake or blade, and when he became the endless sorcerer he uses it with the golden long sword.

Game Master: Battler is the game master of the sixth game and the first one of the episode eight, with this rank, he is omniscient about all the success in Rokkenjima as he created them (however he doesn't know about the detective's behavior). He can reach a more higher plane of existence, the plane of the Game Master in the one He "regulates the game". Whenever Battler create a game, this game is contained in a Kakera in the endless sea of fragments, every Kakera is stated to contain an universe, thus by creating a game, he creates a new universe in the one the only differences are the success in the Rokkenjima's massacre. He can use the gold truth as a Game Master.

Gold Truth: An unique truth that can only be used by the game master, this truth works similar as a red truth and wavers in a different fashion than the red truth. Sometimes it can be inferior, but other superiors. When is superior it can easily bypass a red truth. Its real function has never be properly explained, but is hinted that it had some relationship with the statement of the rules of the game. Battler uses it with his golden long sword

Endless Nine: An absolute shield unique to Battler, it's based in his skepticism, his fierce determination to prove that magic wasn't involved in the murders, gave him a pink barrier that protects him from absolutely all magical attacks, as magic in Umineko is all that is fiction, he is practically invulnerable to all fictional attacks. The barrier wavers from 1 to 9, 1 being the weakest while 9 being the strongest, able to block god's attacks. Battler took the nine and multiplied it by infinite. Theoretical this barrier protect him from absolute all, however this can lead to NLF, however it had been showed that he can block instant kill moves and universal blasts.

Credit goes to slacker the hacker from Comicvine for this format. It's easier format than the wiki which has several articles on Battler's powers.
Damn, I'm inclined to say he wins, however here are some o Beyonder's best feats:

1.After discovering and observing our universe (616) through the pinhole, Beyonder destroys an entire galaxy and creates the battle world from it to act as a battlefield for the secret war between the superheroes and villains

2. Sensing that the Beyonder is a power beyond the multiverse itself and is capable of granting any wishes, Galactus and Doctor Doom head for the rift only to get swatted like flies. Professor Xavier himself says Galactus is less than a fly when compared to the Beyonder

3. Doom usurps Galactus' power and goes on to challenge the greater power of the Beyonder, their battle despite it being in the beyond realm is affecting the very fabric of reality, Doom eventually gets overpowered but manages to steal Beyonder's power with one of Galactus' technological devices (which happened off panel) “supposedly” killing the Beyonder in the process. Note: The Dr. Doom that was on the battleworld at the time of the first secret war, was actually a future version of him (as revealed in fantastic four #288)

4. While in possession of the Beyonder's powers, Doom wasn't able to fully control that power, and so in a burst of anger, he could have destroyed all of reality.The Beyonder however, wasn't truly dead; his consciousness survived and eventually possessed the villain Klaw, whom he used to get his powers back when Doom was at his most vulnerable moment. Doom gives him infinitesimal micro fraction of his strength and tells him it is enough to blacken ten thousand suns. The Beyonder returns for Secret Wars II in which he takes a physical human form to experience earth and humanity

5. The Beyonder finally returns in Secret Wars 2 and he instantly conquers the Earth and controls everything and everyone on it including bacteria, particles and the like

6. The Beyonder casually explores the Many-layered universe/entire multiverse

7. Falling in love with Dazzler, the Beyonder grants her half of his power which is thousand times greater than the combined energy of existence. Dazzler however, rejected the power and fell to her death, the Beyonder destroys an entire galaxy in his grief, then calms down and resurrects her

8. The Beyonder goes back into his Beyond realm, without him it is completely empty since he constitutes everything there and all his energies are contained in his human form. So he starts conjuring everything that comes to his mind including planets

9. Beyonder vs The Celestials. A fight which takes place on countless levels other than the physical. The Beyonder beat them rather easily

10. Beyonder is too big for the multiverse, his very presence alters the entire multiverse a great deal, without him even knowing it

11. Beyonder puts a large portion of his power in the cup and forces Death to drink it, erasing the concept of death across all the multiverse. Then he brings her back with Dave's sacrifice

12. Even with a small fraction of his power, Beyonder is still more powerful than the entire cosmic assembly which includes the Living tribunal and Eternity

13. Just by being angry, he causes multiversal-wide destruction, molecule man repairs it within seconds

14. A brief confrontation between molecule man and the Beyonder in which the he tanked an attack that could have destroyed several billion dimensions, like it was nothing

15. The Beyonder destroys parallel dimensions/universes just by standing there. He proceeds to erase a thousand galactic races including their home worlds out of existence with a mere shrug

16. In his universe, the Beyonder is the one and the many, the nothing and the all, he had no beginning nor will he have an end

17. The Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than the combined power in the multiverse which includes the Living Tribunal

18. Even the mightiest beings in the multiverse are like microbes to the Beyonder. His imagination and reality are one

19. The heroes confront the Beyonder; he easily deals with them, all except the molecule man, whom he engages in a multiversal battle which also affects every single creature in it. The Beyonder then delivers a death stroke which seemingly kills everything in its path, reaching to the ends of infinity

20. Believing that everyone is dead (though in fact, the molecule man removed every being from the blast’s path, fooling the Beyonder) the Beyonder sought to reincarnate himself in a mortal body (by becoming an infant and rapidly aging to transform to an adult, so that he could truly experience humanity) through a machine he created. The molecule man destroys the machine and sends the enormous energies of the Beyonder into his beyond-realm forming a big bang and creating a new universe in the process

Damn...that's some impressive feats. Though I'm confident that Battler could match or counter each one. Also, while Beyonder is undoubtedly powerful, he has no counter for Endless 9, to my knowledge, nor can he counter Golden Key; Battler's golden longsword, which ignores all concepts, cannot be blocked, stopped, stalled, slowed, or miss, and it deals insanely powerful conceptual damage. And on top of E9 and Golden Longsword, Battler can amplify any of his abilities or effects infinity, anything from his DC to his strength. He's also above the very concept of speed entirely.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:08 am

That's what I was thinking, however Endless 9 has a lot of NLF and tops out at universal. I don't think Beyonder really has anytihng magic based since he fights using his imagination. Yes he is protected from fictional attacks and reality warping would certainly be apart of that, but it was only shown to work on a universal level, such attacks Beyonder laughs at like when he took the dimension destroying blast. Now that long sword, that's what kinda seals the deal, if he attacks on a conceptual level. However his size destroyed some universe; Beyonder also sent destruction into infinity. In fact most agree that Pre-Retcon Beyonder vs Thanos with Heart Of The Universe is a fight that Beyonder wins, The HOTU makes you second in power to The One Above All who is omnipotent. He killed Death and brought her back, he was stated to be millions of times more powerful than the entire Marvel Multiverse combined (including LT who can hold Megaverses in his hand and destroy them easily) And destroyed a dimension as a side affect of thinking.

I think that if Battler's weaposn are considered legit and not NLF then he wins, but if we went by NLF rules I say Beyonder. has the better feats since to my knowledge Battler has never shown anything on that level.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:36 am

Kurohige wrote:That's what I was thinking, however Endless 9 has a lot of NLF and tops out at universal. I don't think Beyonder really has anytihng magic based since he fights using his imagination. Yes he is protected from fictional attacks and reality warping would certainly be apart of that, but it was only shown to work on a universal level, such attacks Beyonder laughs at like when he took the dimension destroying blast. Now that long sword, that's what kinda seals the deal, if he attacks on a conceptual level. However his size destroyed some universe; Beyonder also sent destruction into infinity. In fact most agree that Pre-Retcon Beyonder vs Thanos with Heart Of The Universe is a fight that Beyonder wins, The HOTU makes you second in power to The One Above All who is omnipotent. He killed Death and brought her back, he was stated to be millions of times more powerful than the entire Marvel Multiverse combined (including LT who can hold Megaverses in his hand and destroy them easily) And destroyed a dimension as a side affect of thinking.

I think that if Battler's weaposn are considered legit and not NLF then he wins, but if we went by NLF rules I say Beyonder. has the better feats since to my knowledge Battler has never shown anything on that level.

Actually, Endless 9 does not cap out at universe level. Since Battler can amplify his magic infinitly, Endless 9's defense is infinite as well. However, it's not without weaknesses; it can be bypassed using extremely powerful conceptual attacks. Also, reality warping wont work. Endless 9 blocks out absolutely all things fictional or impossible, which, in Umineko, is classified as magic. And Golden Key is, indeed, legit. Its essentially the abstract of absolute truth, given physical form.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:41 pm

I don't see why Beyonder can't do the same, he beat someone who was second only to TOAA, he literally has no limits, even thinking destroys realms beyond his own. He also grew so big the multiverse could not contain him the multiverse in Marvel consist of infinite Universes and dimensions. So if that's the case Beyonder should be able to increase his ability infinitely himself. Blocking something impossible doesn't mean much to being who's entire purpose is doing the impossible. The Heart of The universe literally grants you the power to do anything and not be halted by anyone weaker than TOAA, yet Beyonder is above Thanos who wielded it. I'm also not sure that would work since in Marvel there is a clear distinction between reality warping, magic, super powers ect. Beyonder is capable of all this. Beyonder has conceptual attacks, he didn't like his love dying so he erased the concept of Death. He also bested Living Tribunal which is literally a conceptual being. Beyonder has be said multiple times to be the most powerful being in Marvel U, a fraction of his power is greater than everying being in Marvel U combined, this includes being like Living Tibunal, Watcher, the heart of the Universe, Dormammu ect. I mean I guess I don't see either person beating the other but Beyonder has beaten guys easily that have similar abilities to battler, just used in different ways.
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