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Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:26 pm

Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:What are you talking about? He's a conceptual being, there's no denying that. Its the fact that he can be beaten by regular energy blasts, as opposed to conceptual attacks, that makes your point moot.

He is a concept, that governs other concepts and judges them, he is by default and my status, above human concepts. Beyonder or MM can beat him, a concept with whatever attacks they want, that proves how strong they are. Fact is, Living tribunal is a concept yet Beyonder could destroy him. Being like Sentry and Hulk/Juggernaught have potentially limitless power yet can't do a thing to LT, that makes your point moot. Beyonder destroyed a concept in a way Battler could not, Beyonder doing it his own way does not make it a non-conceptual feat. He can get past cocnepts, or high-concepts for that matter on his power alone.

Uh...no. Hulk does not have limitless power, lol. He caps out at planet level. Also, can you prove that Beyonder's attacks were conceptual? Because you can't just assume they were.
Hulk gets stronger the angrier he get's also depending on which incarnation he was above Silver Surfer, so planet level cap, my keester.

The burden of proof is on you, LT is a concept, you and i agreed on this, Beyonder destroyed him, regardless of how he did it it proved Beyonder's power was above concepts. You have to prove Beyonder can't destroy concepts. Please bring up Death, I'll be glad to discuss that as well. But as it stands the ball is in your court, just because you didn't like the way he did it doesn't mean it's not viable, things like that are what it mean to be Beyonder.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:28 pm

Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
YinYangSona wrote:This one should be locked IMO
If there isnt any strong evidence for Beyonder to win.

That makes you, me, Akron, Cosmic, and everyone else BUT Kurohige, who knows this.
Get off your high horse, even other fans of the series know he loses to Beyonder http://mlpforums.com/topic/124499-who-can-beat-battler-ushiromiya/page-2

The person who said that was me. I said that before I learned that Beyonder has no conceptual attacks. Keep trying.
I doubt this highly. Then again, who am I to talk about misplaced identity? Even so look on comicvine, plenty of battles where people say Beyonder wins, even some who know of the series, with the exception of reikai of course.

Akron can confirm that for me. Also, people on comicvine can think whatever they want. That doesn't make it true.
Just like you and everyone else who "gets it" can think it's true as well, evidently that does not make it true. My point still stands that there are people who think Battler loses that battle aside from the link I posted.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:36 pm

Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:What are you talking about? He's a conceptual being, there's no denying that. Its the fact that he can be beaten by regular energy blasts, as opposed to conceptual attacks, that makes your point moot.

He is a concept, that governs other concepts and judges them, he is by default and my status, above human concepts. Beyonder or MM can beat him, a concept with whatever attacks they want, that proves how strong they are. Fact is, Living tribunal is a concept yet Beyonder could destroy him. Being like Sentry and Hulk/Juggernaught have potentially limitless power yet can't do a thing to LT, that makes your point moot. Beyonder destroyed a concept in a way Battler could not, Beyonder doing it his own way does not make it a non-conceptual feat. He can get past cocnepts, or high-concepts for that matter on his power alone.

Uh...no. Hulk does not have limitless power, lol. He caps out at planet level. Also, can you prove that Beyonder's attacks were conceptual? Because you can't just assume they were.
Hulk gets stronger the angrier he get's also depending on which incarnation he was above Silver Surfer, so planet level cap, my keester.

The burden of proof is on you, LT is a concept, you and i agreed on this, Beyonder destroyed him, regardless of how he did it it proved Beyonder's power was above concepts. You have to prove Beyonder can't destroy concepts. Please bring up Death, I'll be glad to discuss that as well. But as it stands the ball is in your court, just because you didn't like the way he did it doesn't mean it's not viable, things like that are what it mean to be Beyonder.

Its not "regardless of how he did it". In fact, his chances of winning against Battler all hinge on how he did it. And since he used generic energy blasts to beat him, that answers the question. Seeing as LT can apparently be harmed by non conceptual attacks, then you have proven nothing.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Akronawol17 on Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:38 pm

The Beyonder never fought LT.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:42 pm

Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:What are you talking about? He's a conceptual being, there's no denying that. Its the fact that he can be beaten by regular energy blasts, as opposed to conceptual attacks, that makes your point moot.

He is a concept, that governs other concepts and judges them, he is by default and my status, above human concepts. Beyonder or MM can beat him, a concept with whatever attacks they want, that proves how strong they are. Fact is, Living tribunal is a concept yet Beyonder could destroy him. Being like Sentry and Hulk/Juggernaught have potentially limitless power yet can't do a thing to LT, that makes your point moot. Beyonder destroyed a concept in a way Battler could not, Beyonder doing it his own way does not make it a non-conceptual feat. He can get past cocnepts, or high-concepts for that matter on his power alone.

Uh...no. Hulk does not have limitless power, lol. He caps out at planet level. Also, can you prove that Beyonder's attacks were conceptual? Because you can't just assume they were.
Hulk gets stronger the angrier he get's also depending on which incarnation he was above Silver Surfer, so planet level cap, my keester.

The burden of proof is on you, LT is a concept, you and i agreed on this, Beyonder destroyed him, regardless of how he did it it proved Beyonder's power was above concepts. You have to prove Beyonder can't destroy concepts. Please bring up Death, I'll be glad to discuss that as well. But as it stands the ball is in your court, just because you didn't like the way he did it doesn't mean it's not viable, things like that are what it mean to be Beyonder.

Its not "regardless of how he did it". In fact, his chances of winning against Battler all hinge on how he did it. And since he used generic energy blasts to beat him, that answers the question. Seeing as LT can apparently be harmed by non conceptual attacks, then you have proven nothing.
SHow me a being that was not on the level of Beyonder nor MM to best LT in that time.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:43 pm

Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:What are you talking about? He's a conceptual being, there's no denying that. Its the fact that he can be beaten by regular energy blasts, as opposed to conceptual attacks, that makes your point moot.

He is a concept, that governs other concepts and judges them, he is by default and my status, above human concepts. Beyonder or MM can beat him, a concept with whatever attacks they want, that proves how strong they are. Fact is, Living tribunal is a concept yet Beyonder could destroy him. Being like Sentry and Hulk/Juggernaught have potentially limitless power yet can't do a thing to LT, that makes your point moot. Beyonder destroyed a concept in a way Battler could not, Beyonder doing it his own way does not make it a non-conceptual feat. He can get past cocnepts, or high-concepts for that matter on his power alone.

Uh...no. Hulk does not have limitless power, lol. He caps out at planet level. Also, can you prove that Beyonder's attacks were conceptual? Because you can't just assume they were.
Hulk gets stronger the angrier he get's also depending on which incarnation he was above Silver Surfer, so planet level cap, my keester.

The burden of proof is on you, LT is a concept, you and i agreed on this, Beyonder destroyed him, regardless of how he did it it proved Beyonder's power was above concepts. You have to prove Beyonder can't destroy concepts. Please bring up Death, I'll be glad to discuss that as well. But as it stands the ball is in your court, just because you didn't like the way he did it doesn't mean it's not viable, things like that are what it mean to be Beyonder.

Its not "regardless of how he did it". In fact, his chances of winning against Battler all hinge on how he did it. And since he used generic energy blasts to beat him, that answers the question. Seeing as LT can apparently be harmed by non conceptual attacks, then you have proven nothing.
SHow me a being that was not on the level of Beyonder nor MM to best LT in that time.

What does that have to do with anything?
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 pm

Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:What are you talking about? He's a conceptual being, there's no denying that. Its the fact that he can be beaten by regular energy blasts, as opposed to conceptual attacks, that makes your point moot.

He is a concept, that governs other concepts and judges them, he is by default and my status, above human concepts. Beyonder or MM can beat him, a concept with whatever attacks they want, that proves how strong they are. Fact is, Living tribunal is a concept yet Beyonder could destroy him. Being like Sentry and Hulk/Juggernaught have potentially limitless power yet can't do a thing to LT, that makes your point moot. Beyonder destroyed a concept in a way Battler could not, Beyonder doing it his own way does not make it a non-conceptual feat. He can get past cocnepts, or high-concepts for that matter on his power alone.

Uh...no. Hulk does not have limitless power, lol. He caps out at planet level. Also, can you prove that Beyonder's attacks were conceptual? Because you can't just assume they were.
Hulk gets stronger the angrier he get's also depending on which incarnation he was above Silver Surfer, so planet level cap, my keester.

The burden of proof is on you, LT is a concept, you and i agreed on this, Beyonder destroyed him, regardless of how he did it it proved Beyonder's power was above concepts. You have to prove Beyonder can't destroy concepts. Please bring up Death, I'll be glad to discuss that as well. But as it stands the ball is in your court, just because you didn't like the way he did it doesn't mean it's not viable, things like that are what it mean to be Beyonder.

Its not "regardless of how he did it". In fact, his chances of winning against Battler all hinge on how he did it. And since he used generic energy blasts to beat him, that answers the question. Seeing as LT can apparently be harmed by non conceptual attacks, then you have proven nothing.
SHow me a being that was not on the level of Beyonder nor MM to best LT in that time.

What does that have to do with anything?
Molecule Man struck feat into LT, Beyonder made MM into a punk. The fact is a being like MM could already not only put fear into concepts, but destroy them, Beyonder's power is above that. Battler would not have the power to destroy concepts without the manipulation of concepts itself, Beyonder is not hindered by such a thing, You proved nothing. As we know is that the power of MM and Beyonder is above concepts. Those were the only two people of that caliber that could do anything to LT, aside from HOTU which made you Beyonder in a sense anyway.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:48 pm

Akronawol17 wrote:The Beyonder never fought LT.
No but Molecule man can easily defeat him and even struck fear into him with a simple fight with him and Beyonder, in fact, all of realty was struck with fear. The fact that MM is like an ant to Beyonder speaks volume son how he could easily destroy him. Note LT is a concept above Death as well.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:51 pm

Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:What are you talking about? He's a conceptual being, there's no denying that. Its the fact that he can be beaten by regular energy blasts, as opposed to conceptual attacks, that makes your point moot.

He is a concept, that governs other concepts and judges them, he is by default and my status, above human concepts. Beyonder or MM can beat him, a concept with whatever attacks they want, that proves how strong they are. Fact is, Living tribunal is a concept yet Beyonder could destroy him. Being like Sentry and Hulk/Juggernaught have potentially limitless power yet can't do a thing to LT, that makes your point moot. Beyonder destroyed a concept in a way Battler could not, Beyonder doing it his own way does not make it a non-conceptual feat. He can get past cocnepts, or high-concepts for that matter on his power alone.

Uh...no. Hulk does not have limitless power, lol. He caps out at planet level. Also, can you prove that Beyonder's attacks were conceptual? Because you can't just assume they were.
Hulk gets stronger the angrier he get's also depending on which incarnation he was above Silver Surfer, so planet level cap, my keester.

The burden of proof is on you, LT is a concept, you and i agreed on this, Beyonder destroyed him, regardless of how he did it it proved Beyonder's power was above concepts. You have to prove Beyonder can't destroy concepts. Please bring up Death, I'll be glad to discuss that as well. But as it stands the ball is in your court, just because you didn't like the way he did it doesn't mean it's not viable, things like that are what it mean to be Beyonder.

Its not "regardless of how he did it". In fact, his chances of winning against Battler all hinge on how he did it. And since he used generic energy blasts to beat him, that answers the question. Seeing as LT can apparently be harmed by non conceptual attacks, then you have proven nothing.
SHow me a being that was not on the level of Beyonder nor MM to best LT in that time.

What does that have to do with anything?
Molecule Man struck feat into LT, Beyonder made MM into a punk. The fact is a being like MM could already not only put fear into concepts, but destroy them, Beyonder's power is above that. Battler would not have the power to destroy concepts without the manipulation of concepts itself, Beyonder is not hindered by such a thing, You proved nothing. As we know is that the power of MM and Beyonder is above concepts. Those were the only two people of that caliber that could do anything to LT, aside from HOTU which made you Beyonder in a sense anyway.

Beating LT has absolutely nothing to do with this fight. What I'm asking you for is not whether or not he can beat a powerful character, what I'm asking you is whether he can use conceptual attacks. Because if he can't, there's nothing to debate.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Akronawol17 on Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:54 pm

Kurohige wrote:
Akronawol17 wrote:The Beyonder never fought LT.
No but Molecule man can easily defeat him and even struck fear into him with a simple fight with him and Beyonder, in fact, all of realty was struck with fear. The fact that MM is like an ant to Beyonder speaks volume son how he could easily destroy him. Note LT is a concept above Death as well.
true, but that's not the point. The argument is that Beyonder, as powerful as he is, cannot attack conceptually. Sure, he can kill concepts; but he can't, say, attack Battler with the concept of Pain or something.

That's one of the reasons he can't win here. Beyonder almost exclusively fights by using powerful energy attacks, which are useless against Battler. It is up to you, as the one supporting Beyonder, to prove he can attack conceptually. If he cannot, he loses.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:05 am

The way to harm Battler is high level conceptual attacks,by the very rules of the battle forum a character can't do more than what they have shown. LT is a high level concept, MM was able to instill fear into a concept with his power, Beyonder made him look like an ant. LT is a high level concept which MM can already surpass easily. If one needs high level concepts to beat Battler then Beyonder surpasses that rule as he beat someone who was>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A high level concept.

He can kill concepts without concept manipulation, he can also instill fear into concepts, this concept is on the same level as what Endless 9 is able to take. Beyonder already proved he does not need to manipulate concepts to beat them, it's no different here. LT is a higher level concept. I already proved he can get past Endless 9. He doesn't need to attack conceptually. That is a fact, it was proven.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:11 am

Kurohige wrote:The way to harm Battler is high level conceptual attacks,by the very rules of the battle forum a character can't do more than what they have shown. LT is a high level concept, MM was able to instill fear into a concept with his power, Beyonder made him look like an ant. LT is a high level concept which MM can already surpass easily. If one needs high level concepts to beat Battler then Beyonder surpasses that rule as he beat someone who was>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A high level concept.

He can kill concepts without concept manipulation, he can also instill fear into concepts, this concept is on the same level as what Endless 9 is able to take. Beyonder already proved he does not need to manipulate concepts to  beat them, it's no different here. LT is a higher level concept. I already proved he can get past Endless 9. He doesn't need to attack conceptually. That is a fact, it was proven.

1. Beating a conceptual being =/= using conceptual attacks. You have proven nothing.

2. LT is nowhere close to Endless 9 in scale. Battler >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LT.

3. Again, just because he can scare a concept, doesnt mean he can automatically bypass Endless 9. You have proven nothing.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Akronawol17 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:13 am

Kurohige wrote:The way to harm Battler is high level conceptual attacks,by the very rules of the battle forum a character can't do more than what they have shown. LT is a high level concept, MM was able to instill fear into a concept with his power, Beyonder made him look like an ant. LT is a high level concept which MM can already surpass easily. If one needs high level concepts to beat Battler then Beyonder surpasses that rule as he beat someone who was>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A high level concept.

He can kill concepts without concept manipulation, he can also instill fear into concepts, this concept is on the same level as what Endless 9 is able to take. Beyonder already proved he does not need to manipulate concepts to  beat them, it's no different here. LT is a higher level concept. I already proved he can get past Endless 9. He doesn't need to attack conceptually. That is a fact, it was proven.
you haven't proven anything. if anything, your proving my point. Beyonder cannot attack conceptually, just because concepts fear him, doesn't mean he can. Also, Endless 9 is above LT, so that's not proven either.

So let me sum things up.

1. Beyonder cannot attack conceptually, therefor cannot harm Battler. E9 or not.

2. Since he cannot harm Battler, he he no way of winning or bypassing E9.

Unless you can refute these points with feats, then there isn't really anything to debate. Simply stating how far above LT and MM he is not helping your side of the debate.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:24 am

Jesus lol
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:27 am

Gio Gio wrote:Jesus lol

Tell me about it, lol.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:27 am

This thread will not die XDD
It got locked and ressurected.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:31 am

Gio Gio wrote:This thread will not die XDD
It got locked and ressurected.

Yeah, I know. I didn't think there was any point in unlocking it, but Kurohige insisted that he could convince us that Beyonder would win. I have yet to been convinced, lol.

The fact he refuses to see, is that Beyonder cant use conceptual attacks, and therefor, cannot kill, much less touch, Battler.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:33 am

Should've just stayed at a stalemate tbh no need to revive it.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:36 am

Gio Gio wrote:Should've just stayed at a stalemate tbh no need to revive it.

How is it a stalemate when Beyonder has no way to even touch Battler, while Battler can cause a world of pain for Beyonder? I agree that it should have stayed locked, but this is definetly not a stalemate.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:38 am

Then this will simply be an agree to disagree it will never end.
I mean NK and Battler was shorter than this.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:38 am

Chef_Banchou wrote:
1. Beating a conceptual being =/= using conceptual attacks. You have proven nothing.

2. LT is nowhere close to Endless 9 in scale. Battler >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LT.

3. Again, just because he can scare a concept, doesnt mean he can automatically bypass Endless 9. You have proven nothing.

1. You can't destroy fear by punching really hard, can you? No yet Beyonder is able to destroy something beyond human concepts with power alone. He doens't need to use conceptual attacks. Just because Battler can't doesn't mean Beyonder has the same handicap. By your logic Goku can't destroy even the weakest Stand from JJBA due to not being a Stand user. Is not a valid argument. I proved my point just fine.

2. He is a high level concept that governs and rules and judges higher level concepts, you need high level concepts to beat Endless 9 in Umineko. For all intent and purposes, LT is above the required threshold for Endless 9.

3. He scared a high level concept and beat a guy that could easily take him out, he bypassed what should have been impossible. He scared a concept beyond anything showed in Umineko and could stomp a guy like an ant who could stomp that higher level concept like an ant. You saying I proved nothing does not make it true, you have not shown or said anything to the contrary.

Akronawol17 wrote:you haven't proven anything. if anything, your proving my point. Beyonder cannot attack conceptually, just because concepts fear him, doesn't mean he can. Also, Endless 9 is above LT, so that's not proven either.
He doesn't need to attack conceptually, that much has been proven already. He struck fear into LT, a high-conceptual being, yet Beyonder made him look like an infant. He is above high level concepts, Endless 9 requires high level concepts to bypass, Beyonder does this easily however he wishes.
Akronawol17 wrote:So let me sum things up.

1. Beyonder cannot attack conceptually, therefor cannot harm Battler. E9 or not.
He doesn't need to and he can, Battler has shown nothing that can amount to someone who destroys high level concepts. IIRC, Battler needed his sister to bring everyone who died back to life, no?
Beyonder's abilities surpass him, Battler cna't destroy concepts withotu conceptual attacks/manipulation, Beyonder needs no such thing.

Akronawol17 wrote:2. Since he cannot attack conceptually, he he no way of winning or bypassing E9.
Yes, he just does what he did to Molecule man. He doesn't need conceptual attacks.

Akronawol17 wrote:Unless you can refute these points with feats, then there isn't really anything to debate. Simply stating how far above LT and MM he is not helping your side of the debate.
I did, you not liking it and saying "nah" doesn't make it invalid. LT>>>>>Any concept in Umineko, by that fact Beyonder is above Battler's power or understanding. It's not a hard concept to understand(Pun intended).

Prove Battler can defend against something above conceptual beings/attacks.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Kurohige on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:40 am

Gio Gio wrote:Then this will simply be an agree to disagree it will never end.
I mean NK and Battler was shorter than this.
How is this a stalemate when Battler has no way to defend against Beyonder, let alone harm him? Beyonder would laugh at Batt;ers attempts to defend against him as he has faced greater beings. Perhaps it didn't need to be necroed but Beyonder obviously wins this battle.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Gio Gio on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:41 am

Eh i'll stay out of this for now just gonna watch.
I will say LT is above concepts that's for sure.
However iirc MM struck fear not Beyonder correct?
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Chef_Banchou on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:49 am

Kurohige wrote:
Chef_Banchou wrote:
1. Beating a conceptual being =/= using conceptual attacks. You have proven nothing.

2. LT is nowhere close to Endless 9 in scale. Battler >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LT.

3. Again, just because he can scare a concept, doesnt mean he can automatically bypass Endless 9. You have proven nothing.

1. You can't destroy fear by punching really hard, can you? No yet Beyonder is able to destroy something beyond human concepts with power alone. He doens't need to use conceptual attacks. Just because Battler can't doesn't mean Beyonder has the same handicap. By your logic Goku can't destroy even the weakest Stand from JJBA due to not being a Stand user. Is not a valid argument. I proved my point just fine.

2. He is a high level concept that governs and rules and judges higher level concepts, you need high level concepts to beat Endless 9 in Umineko. For all intent and purposes, LT is above the required threshold for Endless 9.

3. He scared a high level concept and beat a guy that could easily take him out, he bypassed what should have been impossible. He scared a concept beyond anything showed in Umineko and could stomp a guy like an ant who could stomp that higher level concept like an ant. You saying I proved nothing does not make it true, you have not shown or said anything to the contrary.

Akronawol17 wrote:you haven't proven anything. if anything, your proving my point. Beyonder cannot attack conceptually, just because concepts fear him, doesn't mean he can. Also, Endless 9 is above LT, so that's not proven either.
He doesn't need to attack conceptually, that much has been proven already. He struck fear into LT, a high-conceptual being, yet Beyonder made him look like an infant. He is above high level concepts, Endless 9 requires high level concepts to bypass, Beyonder does this easily however he wishes.
Akronawol17 wrote:So let me sum things up.

1. Beyonder cannot attack conceptually, therefor cannot harm Battler. E9 or not.
He doesn't need to and he can, Battler has shown nothing that can amount to someone who destroys high level concepts. IIRC, Battler needed his sister to bring everyone who died back to life, no?
Beyonder's abilities surpass him, Battler cna't destroy concepts withotu conceptual attacks/manipulation, Beyonder needs no such thing.

Akronawol17 wrote:2. Since he cannot attack conceptually, he he no way of winning or bypassing E9.
Yes, he just does what he did to Molecule man. He doesn't need conceptual attacks.

Akronawol17 wrote:Unless you can refute these points with feats, then there isn't really anything to debate. Simply stating how far above LT and MM he is not helping your side of the debate.
I did, you not liking it and saying "nah" doesn't make it invalid. LT>>>>>Any concept in Umineko, by that fact Beyonder is above Battler's power or understanding. It's not a hard concept to understand(Pun intended).

Prove Battler can defend against something above conceptual beings/attacks.

1. Give me 1, even ONE shred of proof that you must be above a concept to harm it. Because it looks to me that all thats needded to beat those "all powerful conceptual beings" is energy blasts. YOU HAVE PROVEN NOTHING.

2. Endless 9 is infinite, LT isn't. Nuff said. Battler would make LT his bitch.

3. LT is the embodiment of concepts, but nowhere does it say that those concepts are beyond comprehension.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Post by Akronawol17 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:49 am

1. Again, you haven't proven anything. You saying it's true, doesn't make it so. He does need conceptual attacks, just because you couldn't find any proof Beyonder could, doesn't change that.

2. Battler ignores concepts and attacks conceptually all the time, just because he can't bring others back to life means nothing.

3.yes he does. Hax > power, and Beyonder lacks the hax.

4. Saying "lol he's above his understanding" isn't helping you prove anything. Your right, it's not hard to understand. Beyonder just lacks the means to effectively harm Battler, and you can't provide evidence to prove otherwise.

5. He does that all the time. Him and Bernkastel are above the concept of speed, and were using the concept of pain to hurt each other.
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Re: Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

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